Motorsports Thread

[icowden]

The current modern F1 cars are 2 metres wide, that's just silly, although I dislike Formula E due to the Stock Car antics of the drivers it was a better race, there were genuine overtakes

Which is another reason that there *are* overtakes. Formula E mark 2 cars are 1.7m wide. SO that's 60cm of track space more than F1. In Monaco that's substantial. It's just boring when you know that even a driver like Hamilton has no chance of passing the car in front unless they wave him past. Any other track and you know he would have been past Gasly in a few laps.

The commentators even had to resort to "well, of course this is a track that takes huge concentration, so we might see some excitement towards the end of the race...." when the reality is that the car in the front effectively controls the pace, ensure the tyres don't wear too much and no-one is going to put a foot wrong unless it rains.

It's a long way away from Fangio in the 50s when the cars were about 1.4m wide and the top speed was about 80mph, and yet the track has barely changed.

 

[icowden]

I think the fact the car massively compliments Verstappen has a lot to do with it. Much the same way that Honda builds their MotoGP bikes to favour Marc Marquez.

Isn't that going to be true of most teams with an established leader though? I'd be surprised if development of the Mercedes wasn't driven more from Hamilton's data, style and requirements than Bottas.

 

[Bonefish Blues]

I think the fact the car massively compliments Verstappen has a lot to do with it.

I never had him down as particularly insecure.

 

[Jenkins]

Does anyone watch the racing British Automobile Racing Club 's youtube channel ?

Club / national level races with a very simple presentation but there's some cracking racing

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCZf3wEugCbSW3GX9HvjPmRQ

I've watched a few, as well as attending in person - they do some excellent club series in association with the CTCRC. Have a look at the upcoming Bank Holiday Monday's meeting at Donington Park for example.

 

[Reynard]

Isn't that going to be true of most teams with an established leader though? I'd be surprised if development of the Mercedes wasn't driven more from Hamilton's data, style and requirements than Bottas.

Yeah... But in some teams there is a much bigger disparity than in others. Of course, we can only observe and draw conclusions from what we see - we don't know what's been put down on the contractual side of things.

 

[figbat]

Yeah... But in some teams there is a much bigger disparity than in others. Of course, we can only observe and draw conclusions from what we see - we don't know what's been put down on the contractual side of things.

At least Bottas can run at the front sometimes and be a help to the team strategically and with championship points. Red Bull have a problem with number 2 drivers who simply can't do much to help and I believe it is a systematic problem of the team - they keep shuffling drivers in and out and claiming "he'll get up to speed" before firing them for the next one; they perhaps need a good, hard look at how they develop and bring in drivers vs how the team and car are setup. Leclerc didn't need much time to outpace a Ferrari built around Vettel.

 

[Deleted member 26715]

At least Bottas can run at the front sometimes and be a help to the team strategically and with championship points. Red Bull have a problem with number 2 drivers who simply can't do much to help and I believe it is a systematic problem of the team - they keep shuffling drivers in and out and claiming "he'll get up to speed" before firing them for the next one; they perhaps need a good, hard look at how they develop and bring in drivers vs how the team and car are setup. Leclerc didn't need much time to outpace a Ferrari built around Vettel.

Which was sort of my point, but if you are RB you are faced with a dilemma, currently you have a driver that can potentially be crowned World Driver Championship, as the car has been 100% tailored to him, but then you have no chance of the World manufacturers title as nobody else can drive the car in support, OR do you modify the car in such a way as to not win the Drivers championship, but possibly the manufactures, by having 2 cars constantly in the high points. Ricciardo left RB for exactly that reason, Marko & Horner openly admitted they were building the team around Verstappen to the determent of all other drivers, they are now reaping what they started to sow a few years ago. The only chance they have is to find another driver whose 'style' is akin to Verstappens & hope they can learn the extra bit needed. They may have found their man in Tsunoda but they are now unwilling to put him straight into the RB, I'm not convince Perez can tame the RB or they can develop 2 different cars alongside each other.

 

[matticus]

I don't think a "Verstappen" car is completely undriveable for everyone else. It's probably more psychological than anything else.

If you had a driver of equal talent in the 2nd car, then car setup/design could make enough difference that Max would expect to come out on top over a season; but I think the 2nd drivers we are talking about are all a step behind Verstappen in ability.

IMHO!

 

[Jody]

Yet all the second drivers suddenly start performing again when not racing for RB. It's either developed too far towards Max or there is so much psychological pressure from the DR that they can't perform.

I'm leaning towards the first option, especially as he has a performance clause allowing him to be released from this contract if he can't compete for the championship in 2021

 

[Reynard]

Yet all the second drivers suddenly start performing again when not racing for RB. It's either developed too far towards Max or there is so much psychological pressure from the DR that they can't perform.

I'm leaning towards the first option, especially as he has a performance clause allowing him to be released from this contract if he can't compete for the championship in 2021

Actually, it's more the latter, although the former is a factor as well.

The vast majority of the grid are more or less of equal driving ability. The real difference happens in the drivers' heads and in the general team environment.

Maybe it's serendipity, but last night I was looking through an old stash of articles I'd written back in the day, and one of them was on exactly this particular topic, based on a very enlightening interview with a team owner.

 

[Reynard]

Which was sort of my point, but if you are RB you are faced with a dilemma, currently you have a driver that can potentially be crowned World Driver Championship, as the car has been 100% tailored to him, but then you have no chance of the World manufacturers title as nobody else can drive the car in support, OR do you modify the car in such a way as to not win the Drivers championship, but possibly the manufactures, by having 2 cars constantly in the high points. Ricciardo left RB for exactly that reason, Marko & Horner openly admitted they were building the team around Verstappen to the determent of all other drivers, they are now reaping what they started to sow a few years ago. The only chance they have is to find another driver whose 'style' is akin to Verstappens & hope they can learn the extra bit needed. They may have found their man in Tsunoda but they are now unwilling to put him straight into the RB, I'm not convince Perez can tame the RB or they can develop 2 different cars alongside each other.

Or you end up in a Mansell-Piquet or Prost-Senna situation...

 

[Reynard]

At least Bottas can run at the front sometimes and be a help to the team strategically and with championship points. Red Bull have a problem with number 2 drivers who simply can't do much to help and I believe it is a systematic problem of the team - they keep shuffling drivers in and out and claiming "he'll get up to speed" before firing them for the next one; they perhaps need a good, hard look at how they develop and bring in drivers vs how the team and car are setup. Leclerc didn't need much time to outpace a Ferrari built around Vettel.

And now Sainz is doing a good job of outperforming Leclerc...

As the Ferrari team leader, you're under more pressure than most. The Italian press do not take kindly to lack of performance.

 

[matticus]

Or you end up in a Mansell-Piquet or Prost-Senna situation...

you beat me to it!
I think most team owners get stuck in a dilemma - they want competitive drivers, but they want them to play nicely.

It's a simple requirement: just choose two drivers who are in - say - the top 5 in natural ability, and also perfect team-players, not egotistical rsss-oles.
Simples! And on spare weekends they can play with the fleet of flying pigs ...

In practice because WDC matters more than the Constructors, most current teams actually go all in on Driver#1. But then they overthink Driver#2 selection as they want a competitive driver who is happy to play 2nd fiddle. [See above]

 

[Jody]

Actually, it's more the latter, although the former is a factor as well.

I could accept that if it was a junior driver coming through the ranks but to feck a seasoned driver like Checo's head up that quickly would take some doing.

If that's what's happening then there is a strong case to get rid of the DR if they want both titles, rather than keep firing No2 driver.

 

[Reynard]

In practice because WDC matters more than the Constructors, most current teams actually go all in on Driver#1. But then they overthink Driver#2 selection as they want a competitive driver who is happy to play 2nd fiddle. [See above]

Not strictly true. Revenue directed towards the teams is directly related to the points they accrue in the constructors championship.

From a fan's perspective, it's all about the drivers. From a team's perspective (mostly) it's the constructors championship that really matters.