My new bank card will let me buy stuff at a checkout, but won't let me access my account from an ATM

[classic33]

Here in Scotland there isn't a specific tap on/off card, you use any debit/credit card.

Indeed there isn't. I think Andy got mixed up because he got charged an all day fare, as he failed to tap out.

I think I vaguely remember this. Now the machine is only one, near the doors.
However, you can tap on/off at the driver's machine too.

The failure to tap out bought First a problem they didn't expect here, people being charged for the day when a single journey was made. The driver copping it for there being no signs stating that would happen.

The bus* used in the local demonstration had three doors, and two sets of stairs. First had covered every exit from the bus with a machine, plus one on each set of stairs. Simply by going upstairs you passed two machines, so had "tapped off" as you went up the stairs. The machine in the cab didn't have the range of the other machines, about the same as a card reader in a shop. So it wouldn't read your card as you passed it.

*Never seen the bus in use in this area. Can't think why.

 

[Andy in Germany]

Indeed there isn't. I think Andy got mixed up because he got charged an all day fare, as he failed to tap out.

Yes there is, and no I didn't:

If you tap in and tap out, the fare is 1.50GBP
If you tap in and forget to tap out, the fare is 3.00 GBP

If your card doesn't work, and you have to pay cash, it costs 3.00 GBP when you get on.

This happened several times because certain machines refused my card.

 

[Alex321]

Yes there is, and no I didn't:

If you tap in and tap out, the fare is 1.50GBP
If you tap in and forget to tap out, the fare is 3.00 GBP

If your card doesn't work, and you have to pay cash, it costs 3.00 GBP when you get on.

This happened several times because certain machines refused my card.

That will be because they think you are going to a different destination.

When you tap out, you get charged for the trip you have actually taken. If you pay the driver up front, and don't specify the exact stop where you will be getting off, you will be charged for the longer journey.

The tap on tap off system just makes sure you are charged the lowest available fare for the journey you have actually taken - and keeps track of multiple journeys, applying any relevant savings for those, which paying the driver can't do.

 

[Andy in Germany]

That will be because they think you are going to a different destination.

When you tap out, you get charged for the trip you have actually taken. If you pay the driver up front, and don't specify the exact stop where you will be getting off, you will be charged for the longer journey.

The tap on tap off system just makes sure you are charged the lowest available fare for the journey you have actually taken - and keeps track of multiple journeys, applying any relevant savings for those, which paying the driver can't do.

I gave my destination when I boarded.

From where we were staying to the centre of York was 1.50 GBP if I tapped on and off, and 3.00 GBP if I paid in cash.

They express it as a "discount" for people using the "tap on, tap off" system.

There are simpler and cheaper ways to deal with customers making multiple journeys, and I'm not sure the system in York allows for that anyway, because I never tried.

 

[Ming the Merciless]

A couple of years back we were getting the bus from Innsbruck airport to the train station. I got on ready with my euros. But since the pandemic they no longer accepted cash and I needed to use an app. I tried downloading the app but as my iPhone is set to the UK store it wasn’t available for download. We sat on the bus without paying, ready to explain to an inspector what the problem with paying was.

When we came back through the station a week later, we found some machines where we could get a physical ticket. But it wasn’t obvious if you weren’t local that that is what they were. It’s only because I’d done an internet search whilst we were away, that I discovered what to look out for.

Things always seem intuitive and easy if that’s what you are used to. Come across a different system and you can get caught out.

 

[Alex321]

I gave my destination when I boarded.

From where we were staying to the centre of York was 1.50 GBP if I tapped on and off, and 3.00 GBP if I paid in cash.

They express it as a "discount" for people using the "tap on, tap off" system.

There is no reason they shouldn't give a discount for tap on tap off, in order to encourage people to use it. But there is nothing in their FAQs or online information to suggest they do.

There are simpler and cheaper ways to deal with customers making multiple journeys, and I'm not sure the system in York allows for that anyway, because I never tried.

Well their website says it does. There are caps in place to ensure you never pay more in a day than you would for a general day ticket, and similarly for a week and a weekly ticket.

 

[Andy in Germany]

There is no reason they shouldn't give a discount for tap on tap off, in order to encourage people to use it. But there is nothing in their FAQs or online information to suggest they do.

Of course, they're a private company and can do what they want. As I said, fares were a flat 1.50 GBP ehen I tried to pay with the card. If the card was rejected I had to pay 3.00 GBP

Well their website says it does. There are caps in place to ensure you never pay more in a day than you would for a general day ticket, and similarly for a week and a weekly ticket.

As I said, I have no experience of this because I didn't change buses.

Nonetheless there are simpler systems to facilitate through tickets for multiple trips which don't rely on complicated "tap on, tap off" readers.

 

[Alex321]

Of course, they're a private company and can do what they want. As I said, fares were a flat 1.50 GBP ehen I tried to pay with the card. If the card was rejected I had to pay 3.00 GBP

You weren't by any chance paying for a return there were you?

As I said, I have no experience of this because I didn't change buses.

You surely did use multiple buses, otherwise you wouldn't have had the experience of it sometimes working and sometimes not.

Nonetheless there are simpler systems to facilitate through tickets for multiple trips which don't rely on complicated "tap on, tap off" readers.

Of course there are. You seem to be under the impression that this system is all there is, but that is not the case.

You keep harping on about the fact there are simpler ways - but those ways are available in York (and most other places in the UK).

The Tap on tap off system is mainly aimed at the more casual user, rather than those with regular usage patterns. The short term visitors to the city, or those who don't usually use the buses enough to justify regularly buying season tickets.

 

[classic33]

You weren't by any chance paying for a return there were you?

Standard single fare is £3.00, child half that.

You surely did use multiple buses, otherwise you wouldn't have had the experience of it sometimes working and sometimes not.

Possibly not on the same day though

Of course there are. You seem to be under the impression that this system is all there is, but that is not the case.

You keep harping on about the fact there are simpler ways - but those ways are available in York (and most other places in the UK).

The Tap on tap off system is mainly aimed at the more casual user, rather than those with regular usage patterns. The short term visitors to the city, or those who don't usually use the buses enough to justify regularly buying season tickets.

First leaned heavily on their app around this time last year. Download it for the lower fares. Was/is it a workable option for someone visiting the area? From what I've seen locally "No" would be the answer.

And, no matter how simple the system is, when it fails it's useless.
First disagree with you on the designed for "the casual user" bit. Weekly and monthly tickets are available for anyone via their app.
The system went live with a known bug in place, hoping that many people wouldn't know that they were being charged for the days use if they didn't tap off. The drivers copping it for there not being signage in place.

My only question to @Andy in Germany is would he use it again, or just pay the driver?

 

[presta]

I was wondering about that!

The reason I asked in the first place is that Lloyds have previous form for being clowns with their security.

I've had customers ask me to let them plug their phones in so they can pay for things, and seem people thrown off trains because their phone wasn't working (which I appreciate may or may not be true).

I recently saw a lass on the bus faffing around with her phone trying to get it to work. It did eventually, but not until she'd been stood there trying it over and over again.

But there is no difference in fares for using it.

The first time I used my card on the underground it was because the guy at the ticket office said "why are you queueing for a ticket when it's quicker and cheaper to tap your card".

My problem isn't the use of phones per se, it's the unnecessary and forced addition of technology where there are simpler options.

Why use a simple system when I complicated one will do instead.

here the majority of people using public transport have some kind of season ticket which is valid on all local public transport

How much do you have to travel for it to pay?

I think Andy got mixed up because he got charged an all day fare, as he failed to tap out.

The first time I used my card at the barrier it registered when I got on, then when I got off, the reader flashed but the system didn't register it, so I got charged maximum fare. The second time I used it, I tapped at the station entrance, then found the trains were cancelled, so I got charged maximum fare again.

 

[Andy in Germany]

You weren't by any chance paying for a return there were you?

No, it's 3.50GBP one way.

You surely did use multiple buses, otherwise you wouldn't have had the experience of it sometimes working and sometimes not.

I used the bus on several days, but never changed buses on the route. This is mainly because I didn't need to: we'd travel into the city and travel back to Grandma and Grandpa's house. That said, I wouldn't have trusted the system anyway: for all I knew it would tap me in three times and charge me for a return to Edinburgh.

Of course there are. You seem to be under the impression that this system is all there is, but that is not the case.

Quite the opposite. My frustration was that I'm aware there are far more user-friendly systems in operation without this cumbersome extra technology; I've been using them for many years now. On top of not penalising people for using cash, they also manage radical transport concepts like transferring from a bus to a train, or even another bus run by a different company, using the same ticket.

Instead of just looking at how hundreds of cities and towns outside the UK achieve all this, and have for decades, the UK's transport companies spend time and money reinventing the wheel with things like Tap on, tap off systems which achieve less at more cost and greater inconvenience to passengers. And after all that, they don't even allow you to transfer from a bus to a train, even if they're operated by the same parent company. But hey, there's a cool new gadget with flashing lights...

The Tap on tap off system is mainly aimed at the more casual user, rather than those with regular usage patterns. The short term visitors to the city, or those who don't usually use the buses enough to justify regularly buying season tickets.

So, me, essentially. Epic fail there. Perhaps making sure their machines can all read the same sort of card would be a start.

And, no matter how simple the system is, when it fails it's useless.

And one based on gadgets breaks down more easily than one using simpler technology and with a bit of slack in it.

Penalising their customers because their machines didn't work properly was the icing on the cake.

My only question to @Andy in Germany is would he use it again, or just pay the driver?

I'd have to use it again because the alternative is to double travel costs. There may be a weekly ticket, but does it come in paper format?

 

[Andy in Germany]

Why use a simple system when I complicated one will do instead.

What annoyed me was that the simpler system achieves far more: this one wasn't even doing as good a job.

How much do you have to travel for it to pay?

Depends on the ticket and area, but certainly in Stuttgart it paid for me to use a season ticket to get to college and then to my place of work. The advantage is that when I went to college I went to the city centre and used the rack railway, on my first placement I used a bus then the outer suburban S-Bahn or metro, and then on my last placement I used the bus, tram, and then another bus to a central suburb. Different destinations, different modes and different companies, but one ticket was sufficient.

Now I use the Deutschland Ticket, which basically does the same all over the country. This makes sense for me because I travel from one transport authority to another fairly frequently, but for people who travel locally a local transport card would be sufficient.

Of course, when you have basically a free pass, you find yourself taking it for granted that you can just leap on a train or bus to go wherever you need to go, so I probably use more public transport than I used to.

Oddly, my Deutschland Ticket was issued in Freiburg, but I can still use it here in Tübingen, so I still haven't changed to the local version.

 

[Andy in Germany]

Standard single fare is £3.00, child half that.

That didn't help either: I had to "tap on" then wait for the system to catch up so I could pay for a paper single for Beautiful daughter: all this technology and it can't cope with people having kids...

 

[classic33]

That didn't help either: I had to "tap on" then wait for the system to catch up so I could pay for a paper single for Beautiful daughter: all this technology and it can't cope with people having kids...

Round these parts it charges kids the adult fare. Oddly enough not many kids use them.

There's a paper weekly ticket. Available from the driver, sealed against a light card backing by clear tape.

 

[Ming the Merciless]

But is Accy’s card now working after a diversion into York?