Netherlands

[snorri]

He'd find more success protesting by setting fire to the Titanic

I just couldn't 'Like' your post, but sadly I have to agree

 

[Genau]

Netherlands population density 415/km2, UK 271/km2.

No, I think it's more clueful politicians.

The UK figure is skewed by the big, empty bits in the far north and west. England's population density in 2010 was 401/km2 and south-east England's was 447.

http://webarchive.nationalarchives....ttp://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/dcp171780_275246.pdf

Still, it would be nice to have more facilities.

 

[mjr]

It's nothing to do with population density, it's to do with the flatness of the land and even the stupidest Dutch citizen understanding that it's quicker, cheaper, healthier and more convenient on a bicycle. Unfortunately quite large parts of the UK are hilly so only a tiny tiny minority enjoys cycling and does it mostly for fun.

But hills are a solved problem (we have gears and now e-bikes), UK cycling doesn't actually correlate strongly with hilliness (especially if you dismiss the UK outlier of Cambridge and the fens) and it's still quicker, cheaper, healthier and more convenient on a bicycle here. So I'm still thinking our short-term confrontational politicians are a more likely culprit.

The UK figure is skewed by the big, empty bits in the far north and west. England's population density in 2010 was 401/km2 and south-east England's was 447.

And the Netherlands figure is skewed by the big empty bits in the far north-east and south-west. Holland's population density in 2006 was about 1100/km² and the Randstad's over 1500, yet they still find space for cycling there - if you're going to cut up the UK, let's cut up the Netherlands too!

 

[Genau]

But hills are a solved problem (we have gears and now e-bikes), UK cycling doesn't actually correlate strongly with hilliness (especially if you dismiss the UK outlier of Cambridge and the fens) and it's still quicker, cheaper, healthier and more convenient on a bicycle here. So I'm still thinking our short-term confrontational politicians are a more likely culprit.


And the Netherlands figure is skewed by the big empty bits in the far north-east and south-west. Holland's population density in 2006 was about 1100/km² and the Randstad's over 1500, yet they still find space for cycling there - if you're going to cut up the UK, let's cut up the Netherlands too!
View attachment 414879

I was not suggesting that population density had anything to do with the lack of facilities, merely pointing out that UK statistics are irrelevant when most of us are located in an urban belt stretching from London through Birmingham to Manchester. That's not to say the good people of Sutherland and Caithness should be forgotten either. One way in which the Netherlands perhaps does have an advantage is its density - everything is so much closer together.

Personally, I would also blame politicians but with the caveat that they are responding to public opinion based on 60 years of car-culture. Change the culture and the rest will follow. I work with people who drive the 20 minute walk to the railway station and happily pay as much for parking as for their season ticket. They think driverless cars will be the solution to all our problems, forgetting that they take up the same square footage of road space as a conventional car.

Of course, it's easy for me to say this as I am in flat, mild London with its excellent public transport. If I was back in my hilly, wet northern home town with its barely-there bus service I would be in a car. They all drive like dicks up there - it's not safe on a bike.

 

[Globalti]

A further problem is that most of the roads in British towns and cities date from medieval times and were designed for pack horses and horse-drawn wagons. Look at the typical medieval bridge - it has refuges built into the tops of the cutwaters so that pedestrians didn't get pushed over the parapet by fast-moving widely-loaded pack horses, which were the equivalents of juggernauts before infernal combustion. It is not possible to widen our streets to create space for construction of cycle lanes in the way it's done in the Netherlands.

 

[The Crofted Crest]

A further problem is that most of the roads in British towns and cities date from medieval times and were designed for pack horses and horse-drawn wagons. Look at the typical medieval bridge - it has refuges built into the tops of the cutwaters so that pedestrians didn't get pushed over the parapet by fast-moving widely-loaded pack horses, which were the equivalents of juggernauts before infernal combustion. It is not possible to widen our streets to create space for construction of cycle lanes in the way it's done in the Netherlands.

This is so true. It can't be said often enough. There were absolutely no roads in the Netherlands until about 30 years ago. And that's why they ride bicycles.

 

[Globalti]

[QUOTE 5281462, member: 45"]Widening streets isn't the only way to increase cycle use and reduce the number of cars on the road.[/QUOTE]

Like it or not, cyclists are viewed in the UK as bonkers. In most countries around the world cycling is viewed as a poor man's mode of transport - I once suggested to the son of my Pakistan agent, who was in the UK as a student and who rang to ask my advice on buying a banger (he hadn't factored spares, maintenance, tax or the small matter of insurance into the cost) that he might do better buying a bicycle and cycling from halls to college. The shock this caused was palpable; I might as well have suggested he walked or rode a donkey. Most British people have a similar attitude to cycling, completely different to most Dutch, Belgians or Danes.

 

[mjr]

A further problem is that most of the roads in British towns and cities date from medieval times and were designed for pack horses and horse-drawn wagons. Look at the typical medieval bridge - it has refuges built into the tops of the cutwaters so that pedestrians didn't get pushed over the parapet by fast-moving widely-loaded pack horses, which were the equivalents of juggernauts before infernal combustion. It is not possible to widen our streets to create space for construction of cycle lanes in the way it's done in the Netherlands.

And do you think the Netherlands has no medieval bridges or old towns? There, politicians have answered that problem of insufficient space by taking space away from motorists to give back to people walking and cycling, or diverted motorists to new bridges that don't blight the towns. For example, in Maastricht, the very central, large and old Sint Servaasbrug has been completely demotorised:

Here, ours would build a new road to bypass the bridge... and then leave the old bridge exactly as it was, still dominated by motorists. For one particularly bad example other than King's Lynn, look upriver to Bromham's new bridge (built 1986) - no pavements there:

but Bromham's old bridge - no pavements there:

 

[mjr]

Like it or not, cyclists are viewed in the UK as bonkers.

Perhaps it has something to do with the bonkers things they say, like there not being enough room on medieval bridges for people to walk and cycle when somehow our highways departments squeeze multiple lanes of increasingly wide motor vehicles across them.

 

[snorri]

Personally, I would also blame politicians but with the caveat that they are responding to public opinion based on 60 years of car-culture. Change the culture and the rest will follow.

The problem in a nutshell, and it will take a while to crack.

 

[GuyBoden]

Try Delft, it's a great Dutch cycling city, I have visited many times as my brother-in-law lives there and have always been impressed with the cycling facilities.

https://www.centreforpublicimpact.org/case-study/focusing-bicycles-transport-urban-netherlands/
"the city of Delft constructed a whole network of cycle paths and it turned out that this did encourage more people to get on their bikes. One by one, other cities followed suit."

 

[snorri]

Try Delft, it's a great Dutch cycling city, I have visited many times as my brother-in-law lives there and have always been impressed with the cycling facilities.

Every city in NL is good for cycling, so many Brits only visit Amsterdam and think it is unique.

 

[GuyBoden]

Every city in NL is good for cycling, so many Brits only visit Amsterdam and think it is unique.

Every city in NL is equally good for cycling, but some are more equal than others............. George Orwell .

 

[Globalti]

[QUOTE 5281526, member: 45"]That's a different argument to the one about the roads no being wide enough. But they are linked. Maybe if car drivers had their privilege removed on more streets, while cycling is increasingly encouraged, more would take up the activity. There are sufficient towns/cities in this country where cyclists aren't seen as bonkers to evidence that this could work.[/QUOTE]

Tell me the name of that town or city and I'll move there! I'm afraid the cyclists who frequent web fora are in a tiny minority amongst cyclists generally and even tinier amongst road users. The general public views cyclists as, at best, a lawless nuisance and at worst, the scum of the Earth fit only to be pushed off the road.

 

[Dayvo]

I've been to the Netherlands over a dozen times and have thoroughly enjoyed myself.

The architecture, landscape, beer, cheese, and most appealing of all, the friendliness, openness and positive attitude of virtually everyone I've met.

I'd move there tomorrow if I could.