New Bike - Campag problem

[awfulquiet]

Hiya All,

I got a new bike delivered (Lemond Titanium with Campag Veloce Triple / Record 10sp. B17 Imperial) Needless to say, I'm a happy chap

BUT.... I took it for a first spin today (a very short one it turns out).. did about 5km, in which time the chain came off the front derailleur twice (once towards the inside off the middle plateau, another time towards the outside off the big plateau) and it came off the rear derailleur 3 times.. These problems only happened when I was pushing down on the pedals at any strength over a "just ticking over" speed, but it never happened when shifting (which seems odd, but true). First deraillment came when I tried to put the power down pretty hard to accelerate in traffic..

Other problems I noticed:

Rear cassette would jump gears (complete with crunch/sproing sound).

Top of chain would slap the spokes on the rear wheel when freewheeling (and also, when I wheeled the bike home the last 400 meters, the pedals were spinning, as if the freewheel wasn't working, reminded me of a fixie...)

Naturally, I'm taking it back to the bike shop on Tuesday to get it fixed, but am rather curious if anyone has any ideas why this happened?


Thanks,

Awfers

 

[Will1985]

It just needs tuning. It probably happened because the mechanic who checked it over before you got hold of it didn't do their job properly.

It sounds like the stop screws are set wrongly, and the rear derailleur cable tension needs adjustment.

 

[youngoldbloke]

It just needs tuning. It probably happened because the mechanic who checked it over before you got hold of it didn't do their job properly.

It sounds like the stop screws are set wrongly, and the rear derailleur cable tension needs adjustment.

+1 It just needs tuning ........ mechanic who checked it over before you got hold of it didn't do their job properly - this seems to happen so often. It should be perfect when you receive it. Shouldn't we really have a right to expect a bike - however expensive or inexpensive - to be set up properly. It is not 'fit for purpose' at point of sale, and is potentially dangerous.

 

[accountantpete]

Probably just needs tuning as the above have said, but I would check the bottom bracket for play which may be contributing to the problem.

The pedals turning is a good sign in that the contact of the pawls with the hub is pulling on the chain causing the pedals to also turn. This would indicate that the bottom bracket is running very freely to allow the slight pull to move them - presumably it is an Ultra Torque BB?

 

[MartinC]

It sounds likr the transmission needs checking and adjusting - chain length and the limit stops on both front and rear mechs.

I slightly puzzled by your description. Dropping the chain outside the big chainring is normally 'cos the limit stop screw on the front mech needs adjusting. Dropping the chain between middle and inner chainrings suggests you're running a narrow 10 or 11 speed chain on an 8 or 9 speed chainset. The mix of components you describe is puzzling too - it's a new bike but Campag haven't made Veloce or Record triple chainsets or mechs for a while. Up until last year you could get Champ, Race or Comp triple components. What's the exact spec of your transmission? Pics?

 

[woohoo]

.... The mix of components you describe is puzzling too - it's a new bike but Campag haven't made Veloce or Record triple chainsets or mechs for a while. Up until last year you could get Champ, Race or Comp triple components. What's the exact spec of your transmission? Pics?

... and to pick up on an earlier point, these triples are square taper. Campag have never made an Ultra Torque triple.

 

[awfulquiet]

Thanks all... here are the photos.. (fuzzy, as they're iPhone photos in low light)

The front derailleur is a Veloce 10 speed.

Crankset is Chorus triple

Controls are Chorus 10 Micron (rear) / Chorus QS Micron (front)

Rear Derailleur is a Record 10 Speed Titanium

Rear cassette is 12 to 29, with 10 rings (campag part)

Bottom Bracket is a Chorus 111mm English Asymmetric 1.370 x 24T

Chain doesn't seem to have any markings.. Is there any way tell ?

I tried to "wiggle" the BB, not any tiny bit of give (this was done by hand).

I'm a heavy rider (126kg, with big muscular legs, already made a standard set of Bontrager skewers give way and make the wheel pop out of the rear dropouts.. cheap plastic parts of the skewer. That resulted in a hospital visit..)

 

[MartinC]

Awfulquiet. Thanks for the pics - they help but there's some things we can't.

You appear to have a mix of of components of different vintages - nothing necessarily wrong with that but without being able to read the marking on the components and ploughing through the catalogues it's hard to tell the exact spec of the component mix.

From what you say the transmission needs adjusting properly anyway but here are some things to check.

Is the chainset a Chorus 9 or 10 speed? It should be marked on it somewhere - on the cranks or chainring. If it's a 9 speed the it's possible that it could drop a 10 or 11 speed chain between the rings. I believe (I've never measured them) that Campag 9 and 10 speed rings are the same thickness except for the teeth which are machined slightly to be narrower for 10 speed. The spacers on the 10 speed chainring bolts are thinner to put the chainrings slightly closer.

It's a while since Campag made a Veloce Triple mech. I think from looking at it that it's a triple but the photo isn't clear enough to be absolutely sure - again it will say on it what it is. What is certain is that if it's a Veloce triple mech then it's not a QS (Quick Shift) mech. QS shifters used less cable pull to move the mech and attempted to index it rather than use the traditional (and now re-instated) Campag method of just having a micro ratchet on the front shift. The mech should work but not as well as QS front mech would. You can still get Race and Comp triple front mechs which are QS. Campag made a little adaptor plate to fit on the cable clamp to run non-QS front mechs with QS shifters - yours definitely doesn't have one fitted - it might help if you could get hold of one (try Mercian?)

I don't think your rear mech is a 'long' one. Campag used to make them in 3 sizes (of the jockey wheel cage) - short for double chainrings and a rear sprocket up to 26 teeth, medium for doubles with sprockets up to 29 and triples with sprockets up to 26, long for triples with sprockets up to 29. This affects two things - the ability of the mech to track the sprockets correctly and the ability for it to take up all the slack in a chain long enough to cope with the differences in sprocket and chainring differences. Whether the medium rear mech you have can cope with a triple and a 29 sprocket cassette depends on the frame geometry and how it's adjusted. This may be contributing to your problems too.

 

[youngoldbloke]

What did the bike shop say?

 

[awfulquiet]

Hi Martin,

Thanks! Wow that's a lot of info.. appreciate the wealth of input

Here's some more photos, close ups of the chain and better details of the rear derailleur, front chainrings and more :

And... here's what happens when I rotate the cranks backwards. This seems more like a freewheel problem...

 

[awfulquiet]

Awfulquiet. Thanks for the pics - they help but there's some things we can't.

You appear to have a mix of of components of different vintages - nothing necessarily wrong with that but without being able to read the marking on the components and ploughing through the catalogues it's hard to tell the exact spec of the component mix.

From what you say the transmission needs adjusting properly anyway but here are some things to check.

Is the chainset a Chorus 9 or 10 speed? It should be marked on it somewhere - on the cranks or chainring. If it's a 9 speed the it's possible that it could drop a 10 or 11 speed chain between the rings. I believe (I've never measured them) that Campag 9 and 10 speed rings are the same thickness except for the teeth which are machined slightly to be narrower for 10 speed. The spacers on the 10 speed chainring bolts are thinner to put the chainrings slightly closer.

From some google image searches and comparing my crankset, I'm pretty certain it's a Chorus Triple 10 Speed (apparently they did exist, it took the LBS forever to find it). I could be totally wrong. I can't see "10 speed" written anywhere, but the chain rings say C10 before they mention the size (see photos above). I could be wrong, will bow to someone with Campag knowledge

CRC seems to sell the same crankset as I have: http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/Models.aspx?ModelID=42112

It's a while since Campag made a Veloce Triple mech. I think from looking at it that it's a triple but the photo isn't clear enough to be absolutely sure - again it will say on it what it is. What is certain is that if it's a Veloce triple mech then it's not a QS (Quick Shift) mech.


QS shifters used less cable pull to move the mech and attempted to index it rather than use the traditional (and now re-instated) Campag method of just having a micro ratchet on the front shift. The mech should work but not as well as QS front mech would. You can still get Race and Comp triple front mechs which are QS. Campag made a little adaptor plate to fit on the cable clamp to run non-QS front mechs with QS shifters - yours definitely doesn't have one fitted - it might help if you could get hold of one (try Mercian?)

I uploaded another photos, it does say Triple on it...

For the adaptor plate, I'm not in the UK, any idea of a part number ? Or what one looks like ?

I don't think your rear mech is a 'long' one. Campag used to make them in 3 sizes (of the jockey wheel cage) - short for double chainrings and a rear sprocket up to 26 teeth, medium for doubles with sprockets up to 29 and triples with sprockets up to 26, long for triples with sprockets up to 29. This affects two things - the ability of the mech to track the sprockets correctly and the ability for it to take up all the slack in a chain long enough to cope with the differences in sprocket and chainring differences. Whether the medium rear mech you have can cope with a triple and a 29 sprocket cassette depends on the frame geometry and how it's adjusted. This may be contributing to your problems too.

Hmm.. Mine's a 13 - 29 out back, any way to tell if I have the long or short? (posted a photo above)



Thanks again!

Awfers

 

[awfulquiet]

What did the bike shop say?

Nothing yet, am taking it up to them tomorrow...

 

[Will1985]

I believe (I've never measured them) that Campag 9 and 10 speed rings are the same thickness except for the teeth which are machined slightly to be narrower for 10 speed. The spacers on the 10 speed chainring bolts are thinner to put the chainrings slightly closer.

Campag have not changed the design of the crank since 9 speed..thus, the "spacers" or tabs on the crank are actually the same thickness on 9, 10 and 11 speed cranks (I've compared all mine to check this, which is also why 11 speed rings are backwards compatible). The thickness of the chainrings is what changes to narrow the gap from the centreline of the ring.

That rear derailleur jockey cage in the latest photos looks long enough to me. awfulquiet, that won't be a freehub problem...you could take the wheel out and spin it holding the cassette and it will be fine - this is more to do with the tuning of the rear derailleur. I've seen the problem before and the symptoms I've noted were jammed jockey wheels (clearly not the case), and poorly indexed derailleur - while it isn't exactly designed to be pedalled backwards, it looks like the chain hasn't meshed properly with the upper jockey wheel and is resting on the cage.

One other thing to note is that the cables have been cut and crimped seriously short, especially for the front derailleur - I doubt a cable puller could do it's job with so little cable to grip.

 

[awfulquiet]

Campag have not changed the design of the crank since 9 speed..thus, the "spacers" or tabs on the crank are actually the same thickness on 9, 10 and 11 speed cranks (I've compared all mine to check this, which is also why 11 speed rings are backwards compatible). The thickness of the chainrings is what changes to narrow the gap from the centreline of the ring.

That rear derailleur jockey cage in the latest photos looks long enough to me. awfulquiet, that won't be a freehub problem...you could take the wheel out and spin it holding the cassette and it will be fine - this is more to do with the tuning of the rear derailleur. I've seen the problem before and the symptoms I've noted were jammed jockey wheels (clearly not the case), and poorly indexed derailleur - while it isn't exactly designed to be pedalled backwards, it looks like the chain hasn't meshed properly with the upper jockey wheel and is resting on the cage.

One other thing to note is that the cables have been cut and crimped seriously short, especially for the front derailleur - I doubt a cable puller could do it's job with so little cable to grip.

Hi Will,

Yikes... didn't notice about the cables. Will ask them to re-run them (could do it myself really while there, LBS are good friends, which is why this is so puzzling to receive a bike with so many problems..)

I think the chain was resting on the cage because it wanted to change gear (and I hadn't touched the controls at all, only ran the pedals backwards by hand...) Just now I ran the cranks forwards and it changed gear and it looks normal... weird...

Oddly enough, when I run the pedals backwards by hand, then forwards, I can hear the freewheel trying to catch (a light clunk clunk clunk) and takes it a good while to engage, it's no where near immediate, takes about 25° of the total crank rotation before the freewheel engages and the power is transferred to the rear hub...

Just this minute (before taking the photos below), I rank the cranks by hand up to speed and let go, the cranks continued to turn as the rear wheel was spinning, and with considerable force, I could even change gears both front and rear.

Here's a photo of the rear derailleur again, from the rear.. seems almost as if the rear arm is a bit twisted or bent?

 

[rustychisel]

AQ - hard to see from that picci whether the derilleur is bent, though I know you tried to 'centre' the picture to show just that. It may be, if there are significant problems with the drivetrain I might expect the derailleur hanger to either require a tweak or to have been bent a little.

The important thing is to get the bike to LBS before riding it any further, IMO, and risking any further damage.

Now, from what you describe and I can see, the rear derailleur is shockingly set up and barely adjusted. In particular the B Screw seems not to have been set to set the upper jockey wheel properly away from the bottom of the cassette, a common mistake which will cause most of the issues you describe. Equally to the point, if they can get that wrong, they can get anything wrong, including not setting up the front derailleur correctly, and, as it happens, never checking the derailleur hanger (rear) to see it was correctly aligned in the first place.

I'm very sorry, but HOW much confidence do you have in this LBS?