New bike - supplier resistance to swapping components.

[Pale Rider]

JIT is a dream.

A mate of mine is a component supplier.

He calls it JTL - just too late.

 

[Tin Pot]

To be fair, JIT works best further back in the supply chain rather than at the point of demand. It would work for example on a stock of 105 derailleur cages for a large bike manufacturer that decided to start offering quick build to order bikes. It's not going to work for an LBS though.

Just imagine the killing you could make if you started a sofa company that had a slogan of "Order today and we'll deliver tomorrow" (That's just a tongue in cheek aside before anyone takes me seriously)

But that's not JIT is it?

Someone sitting on a pile of derailleurs a waiting for the large bike manufacturer to place an order? It just outsources the warehouse costs.

 

[Profpointy]

So what? One retailer chooses to work that way, others don't. Your evidence hardly makes for a universal truth. bb

don't quite see why you've got such a beef about it, but hey ho

 

[SpokeyDokey]

A bit away from LBS now I admit but so is Demand Led Manufacturing. One of the big things to come out of Japan in the late 80s/early 90s was JIT: Just in Time. It means that production plants don't spend a fortune on storage of parts instead relying on modern, sophisticated ordering systems that recognise usage and order parts when required. You'll have noticed that DLM is contrary to this, it's diametrically opposite so have we come full circle or will DLM end up just being a bit of a flash in the pan? I think the latter as there is too much money to be made in the economies of scale of JIT and not enough in satisfying low level demand.

In terms of relevance to this issue I wonder what the level of demand is for some minor tweaks?

Manufacturers generally have recognised that pedals are a user/chooser choice and have taken the easy option of just not supplying any at all.

I'd also hazard a guess that a good number of folk would want to change the stem length or angle, the saddle and possibly gearing - esp' amongst more experienced riders who have a pretty good idea of what they want/need.

I do realise that you could go on ad-infinitum with multitudes of variables but there has to be a sweet spot somewhere that works for all parties involved.

Maybe the sweet spot is where it currently sits and I am just out of kilter? Or maybe it isn't and some players in the industry haven't caught up with the changes in the ways consumers treat the purchasing process vs yesteryear?

 

[Tin Pot]

In terms of relevance to this issue I wonder what the level of demand is for some minor tweaks?

Manufacturers generally have recognised that pedals are a user/chooser choice and have taken the easy option of just not supplying any at all.

I'd also hazard a guess that a good number of folk would want to change the stem length or angle, the saddle and possibly gearing - esp' amongst more experienced riders who have a pretty good idea of what they want/need.

I do realise that you could go on ad-infinitum with multitudes of variables but there has to be a sweet spot somewhere that works for all parties involved.

Maybe the sweet spot is where it currently sits and I am just out of kilter? Or maybe it isn't and some players in the industry haven't caught up with the changes in the ways consumers treat the purchasing process vs yesteryear?

I think you're viewing this from the wrong angle.

Business creates products, delivers value to meet a demand at a price enough customers are willing to pay.

THe reason there are no pedals on road bikes is to reduce the cost of production, and allowed because we will still buy bikes without pedals.

If a significant consumer base were willing to pay more bespoke fittings a business would provide the service - and there are businesses that do just that. £2000 for a bike that would otherwise cost £1000. I'm guessing they don't get many sales.

 

[SpokeyDokey]

@Tin Pot

I think you're viewing this from the wrong angle.

No problem - we all see the world differently.

Business creates products, delivers value to meet a demand at a price enough customers are willing to pay.

Yes - I understand that but what's the real relevance here? Businesses supply a service or product for which there is a demand otherwise there is no business. My view is that a 'take it or leave it' approach without any attempt to adjust the product to properly suit the customer may create lost opportunities. The size of the loss is moot and, I accept, at the end of the day not my problem. Just because 'it's the way things are done' within a business sector doesn't make it right.

THe reason there are no pedals on road bikes is to reduce the cost of production, and allowed because we will still buy bikes without pedals.

If that is correct then that's an example of the manufacturer having zero interest in the customers needs by lopping off a critical component to simply cut costs. Alternatively, why can't the same philosophy be applied to other simple components that may need tweaking?

If a significant consumer base were willing to pay more bespoke fittings a business would provide the service - and there are businesses that do just that. £2000 for a bike that would otherwise cost £1000. I'm guessing they don't get many sales.

I'm pretty sure that the small scale component changes I would seek would not amount to much differential in pricing. If the cycle industry, as a rule, provides a product that does not quite meet the precise needs of it's customers, and I don't think they do, eg most cyclists don't get on with stock saddles and the chances of a stock stem being spot-on is also probably low, then the industry is hardly properly customer focussed imo.

End of the day, LBS's are going under and online* continues to grow. It's a similar story across other sectors too. I'm not suggesting that my view of decent service would save the day but maybe it's an example of a certain type of business plodding along with historical business practices that slowly drift away from the changing aspirations of customers. Dodo-ish really.

*I know they all don't offer a simple customisation service but there are examples out there. Rose being big on it, ditto Ribble and Planet X to an extent. No doubt there are more.

 

[ayceejay]

I think the elephant in the room is the discounted price. Can I assume these are models from a previous year with components that are not current? Just asking but I think what you are asking would be par for the course with a full price bike but with a discounted bike maybe not.

 

[vickster]

I think the elephant in the room is the discounted price. Can I assume these are models from a previous year with components that are not current? Just asking but I think what you are asking would be par for the course with a full price bike but with a discounted bike maybe not.

He linked a 2016 bike up thread

 

[ayceejay]

Thanks vicky I reread the OP and it looks like I got the discount thing wrong too so I take back everything I said.

 

[Tin Pot]

@Tin Pot

I think you're viewing this from the wrong angle.

No problem - we all see the world differently.

Business creates products, delivers value to meet a demand at a price enough customers are willing to pay.

Yes - I understand that but what's the real relevance here? Businesses supply a service or product for which there is a demand otherwise there is no business. My view is that a 'take it or leave it' approach without any attempt to adjust the product to properly suit the customer may create lost opportunities. The size of the loss is moot and, I accept, at the end of the day not my problem. Just because 'it's the way things are done' within a business sector doesn't make it right.

THe reason there are no pedals on road bikes is to reduce the cost of production, and allowed because we will still buy bikes without pedals.

If that is correct then that's an example of the manufacturer having zero interest in the customers needs by lopping off a critical component to simply cut costs. Alternatively, why can't the same philosophy be applied to other simple components that may need tweaking?

If a significant consumer base were willing to pay more bespoke fittings a business would provide the service - and there are businesses that do just that. £2000 for a bike that would otherwise cost £1000. I'm guessing they don't get many sales.

I'm pretty sure that the small scale component changes I would seek would not amount to much differential in pricing. If the cycle industry, as a rule, provides a product that does not quite meet the precise needs of it's customers, and I don't think they do, eg most cyclists don't get on with stock saddles and the chances of a stock stem being spot-on is also probably low, then the industry is hardly properly customer focussed imo.

End of the day, LBS's are going under and online* continues to grow. It's a similar story across other sectors too. I'm not suggesting that my view of decent service would save the day but maybe it's an example of a certain type of business plodding along with historical business practices that slowly drift away from the changing aspirations of customers. Dodo-ish really.

*I know they all don't offer a simple customisation service but there are examples out there. Rose being big on it, ditto Ribble and Planet X to an extent. No doubt there are more.

Apologies, I don't have the bandwidth to go line by line, but in short - yes, it is moot in this case. "Right" in business is what's right for the market you are selling to, nothing else matters (some exceptions obviously). This isn't a philosophical or moral position, it's just reality.

My example of £1000 vs £2000 is taken from reality. There are companies selling my bike rrp ~£1000 for ~£2000 with bespoke but comparably equivalent components.

There are many reasons non-bespoke products are vastly cheaper, see the Model T ford for the ultimate example.

There is literally no way for vast numbers of mom and pop operations to exist in any industry* within Britain, those that do will be on the breadline. A few boutiques will be the exception but not be as profitable as they appear.

For LBS substitute; bakers, butchers, banks, garages, tailors, etc. Ad infinitum.