New Bromptons vs old(er)

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I’ll admit that I’m a Brompton fan, having had one since 1996 (an L5). The Sturmey 5 speed gear always felt a hinderance though and in 2009 I sold it and bought a S6L. I immediately felt a huge difference: the newer frame and longer wheelbase made for a much stiffer and more predictable ride, and the BWR hub plus 2 speed derailleur gives very evenly spaced effective gearing (on the 5 speed the was no perceptible difference between 1st and 2nd). Unfortunately as time has gone on I have found it harder and harder to get on with the S bar height, what was nice and sporty 12 years ago now gives me a pain in the neck and a sore back, and I can’t turn to look behind as well as I used to.

I’ve priced up a bar change with Joseph Kuosac mid rise bars along with the new Brompton combined shifters, new cables, and Ergon grips (currently it’s the original (now tatty) foam grips and Cane Creek bar ends as the rattling shifters I currently have drive me daft. Cost is around £200. This should bring the handlebars up to M-bar height.

Given that I sold my L5 for pretty much what I bought it for, would selling the S6L and buying a C Type Explore give me the same incremental change I saw in going from 1996 model to 2009? On the one hand a £200 upgrade seems sensible but would I appreciate what a 2022 model would bring?

I’m pretty much sold on the Brompton system (I’ve got a few bags etc for it) and a Moulton if I want more performance riding so not considering other brands. TBH I feel quite sentimental towards my Brompton and probably wouldn’t sell it, but what differences would I see if I did swap?

 

[shingwell]

My guess is that your existing B will have a hard time simply because everything on a new B will be tighter - no slop between moving parts - and new is bound to feel better than old with any bike.

That said it sounds like a fun project to upgrade "old faithful" and keep him/her on the road for years to come! Check that the fold will still work with higher handlebars tho - the S has a shorter stem (I'm not familiar with the bars you mention).

 

[mitchibob]

Check that the fold will still work with higher handlebars tho - the S has a shorter stem (I'm not familiar with the bars you mention).

Pretty sure the S-type stem is longer than an M-Type at that age, so mid-rise bars would make it close to an M-type, without affecting the fold.

 

[T4tomo]

The 2005 update was the most major in history as the wheelbase extended and the handling thus improved, plus the hub gear was upgraded.

the brake levers were upgraded and the rattly shifters as you mention plus the wheels and crankset are now different but most of the 05-2022 updates are minor are cosmetic.

There is that overall new-ness factor which is hard to gauge? new bearings & cables all round etc. but i dont think you wold witness a night a day change as before. I think your £200 upgrade plan is a sound one.

My 2005 SL3 has had a new BB and crankset and brake levers upgraded and the seatpost sleeve replaced and reamed and a rotted mudguard replaced. I don't think I'd swap it, it has the original titanium seat post etc that you can't get anymore. (I'd swap for the new Ti model, but that would be a big £££ hit!)

 

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Sounds good… the more I’ve thought about it I’d prefer to keep Old Faithful. The JK bars are sold specifically with this modification in mind and there are a few YouTube videos confirming that it does work. They are sold over sized so they do need a bit of cutting down to achieve a suitable fold - but that’s no big deal. Cables will need changed in any case and I think the new brakes and shifters look much better (and reputedly rattle less). I’m confident that the bike is going to get a fair bit more use with the change.

 

[T4tomo]

I think the new brakes and shifters look much better (and reputedly rattle less)

no idea on the shifters as i have stuck with the old one (and the rattles are part of the Brommie experience and come from various places) but the newer brake levers were a worthwhile upgrade, feel more solid and better power/ modulation for a modest £ outlay.

 

[mitchibob]

Sounds good… the more I’ve thought about it I’d prefer to keep Old Faithful. The JK bars are sold specifically with this modification in mind and there are a few YouTube videos confirming that it does work. They are sold over sized so they do need a bit of cutting down to achieve a suitable fold - but that’s no big deal. Cables will need changed in any case and I think the new brakes and shifters look much better (and reputedly rattle less). I’m confident that the bike is going to get a fair bit more use with the change.

Think it still folds fine without cutting them down, but there were way too wide for me ... should've chopped them before the hill climb race to save a few grams apart from anything. But the JK bars do make them easy to cut down by putting markings at the ends so you can easily cut the same from each side until you're happy with the width.

 

[Kell]

Just for reference, here's the older style bar heights.

While it doesn't give a stem height, if you know the rise of Brompton bars, I guess you could work backwards.

The S and the H type of old had a similar stem height, the crucial difference being that the H-type had the fold higher up to allow the higher bars to fold and not hit the ground.

If other people have done it and not run into any problems, then I'd say go for it.

Having hired a Brompton for a month before committing to buying mine (2015), I did have decent experience of both old and (then) new brake levers and the new versions are a massive improvement. I can't comment on the very latest versions with shifters as I've not used them.

 

[Kell]

Think it still folds fine without cutting them down, but there were way too wide for me ... should've chopped them before the hill climb race to save a few grams apart from anything. But the JK bars do make them easy to cut down by putting markings at the ends so you can easily cut the same from each side until you're happy with the width.

After I posted pictures of my bars cut down (badly) someone suggested a plumber's pipe cutter to ensure they're straight. Mine were, how shall we say, a little wonky...

 

[404 Not Found Anywhere]

You used to be able to buy the right stem so you could do it all with Brompton parts… doesn’t look like you can do that any more except through a dealer (and I expect parts will be *very* expensive)… my nearest dealer is Halfords and I‘m not letting them loose on my Brompton!

 

[Kell]

You used to be able to buy the right stem so you could do it all with Brompton parts… doesn’t look like you can do that any more except through a dealer (and I expect parts will be *very* expensive)… my nearest dealer is Halfords and I‘m not letting them loose on my Brompton!

I believe that certain items have become 'dealer fit only'.

I can't tell you what they all are from memory, but it includes the reaming tool to remove and refit the rear triangle.

 

[berlinonaut]

Given that I sold my L5 for pretty much what I bought it for, would selling the S6L and buying a C Type Explore give me the same incremental change I saw in going from 1996 model to 2009? On the one hand a £200 upgrade seems sensible but would I appreciate what a 2022 model would bring?

I think both ways are valid. On the S-stem you can add up to 10cm of bar height, bringing it at level with a stock M model. A 2009 BWR-model is in my eyes a good starting point. The differences to actual models are recognizable, but the more relevant ones are retrofittable and the differences between 2009 and 2022 are not as huge in terms of effect as between 1996 and 2009. As a rule of thumb: From 2000 on Brompton made bigger changes every 4-5 years and incremental ones in between.
2000: MK3 model (better brakes, better materials all over the place)
2004: Mk4 model (longer wheel base)
2005: new stems (S+P) and ti-models, 2-speed invented
2009: BWR, new saddle (including pentaclip on all models), color change to mate
2013: spider crankset, new brake levers, new rims
2017: new stems, new bars, new shifters, Brompton Electric
2021/2022: new naming conventions, (A-line, C-line,...), P-model and T model launched with massive technical changes/overhaul

There have been a lot of smaller changes along the way that add up. Materials are better, detail solutions are better - from bolts to rear carrier. Typically a newer model is thus more preferable. Bringing an older model completely to the actual standard is possible but typically not economical. Especially not given the resale value of the older bike (which applies even more at current times). On the other hand: If you like your current bike and limit the changes to the ones that are important to you upgrading can be a valid and cheap way. The price difference to a newer bike would be more than the GBP200 you calculated for upgrading. So in your case with a 2009 S-model as a baseline it is mainly a matter of taste I'd say, depending a bit from details like i.e. if you do have/want dynamo lights or such. But you should have in mind the limits: I.e. if you need a new chainwheel in foreseeable future and think about a different stem and maybe adding dynamo lights a selling your bike and buying a new one would probably be the better choice. You are missing 13 years of upgrades and development currently, which equals three big iterations and all the incremental upgrades in between. But possibly not everything is relevant to you.

The 2005 update was the most major in history as the wheelbase extended and the handling thus improved, plus the hub gear was upgraded.

You mixed a bunch of changes up in this one. Wheelbase was 2004, in 2005 the 3-speed was changed back to S/A (while the 6-speed stayed SRAM until 2009), which in my eyes are more or less equal, not really a relevant upgrade.

Just for reference, here's the older style bar heights.

The overall heights are still the same (apart from P does not exist any more), in 2017 the stem heights of M and H rose a bit while the bar height shrunk a little bit.

You used to be able to buy the right stem so you could do it all with Brompton parts… doesn’t look like you can do that any more except through a dealer (and I expect parts will be *very* expensive)… my nearest dealer is Halfords and I‘m not letting them loose on my Brompton!

Well, in 1996 there was just one stem and one type of bar, so that was easy Upgradablity is still there (including stem and bars), just that it is an expensive exercise with Brompton parts. The "dealer fit only" is a UK-specific problem - until now this policy is (luckily) only valid in the UK. When buying a new Brompton today personally I would always go for the H-model and change the bars after buying. The H model offers the most flexibility regarding other bars, bar heights and widths (while stock it is way too high for almost everyone).

 

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It was the introduction of the BWR + 2 speed change that convinced me to upgrade my L5, I hadn‘t really been that aware of the other changes at the time so I was delighted to discover them! I didn’t like the matt finish but it has grown on me. My old one was red with black extremities, my new one black with red extremities.

 

[mitchibob]

It was the introduction of the BWR + 2 speed change that convinced me to upgrade my L5, I hadn‘t really been that aware of the other changes at the time so I was delighted to discover them! I didn’t like the matt finish but it has grown on me. My old one was red with black extremities, my new one black with red extremities.

Great choice! :-D

 

[12boy]

Perrenial bikes in Minneapolis, Minn has been offering a similar bar for S types for years. Kell's idea of a pipe cutter to shorten bars is something that has worked well for me. I bought some $20 tektro clone brake levers which work very well. They allow removing the the cable and housing without pulling the cable through the lever housing and are hinged to allow taking the levers off without removing the grips. An upgrade I made which has been good was replacing the the headset with a Chris King Gripnut....never even adjusted after 5-6 k miles. Another factor in retaining the S stem is it reaches forward a bit more than the M. My SA SLS30 3 speed shifter is rattle free and works very well.