New wheels! (Fulcrum Racing 5)

[EasyPeez]

Despite promising myself I'd only spend on a saddle, new disc calipers, shoes and bar gel+tape this year, I'm really feeling the need to change the wheels on my Boardman CX - Mavic 319 rims, not sure about the hubs and spokes, but they seem to weigh a ton!

At first I was considering these, but not sure if they come in a QR option
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/...gclid=CKrK_9yO6MoCFdS7GwodPgMPjw&gclsrc=aw.ds

But then I thought, instead of spending a couple of hundred on the CX, why not spend a bit more, get better wheels for the roadie and hand down my road wheels (Fulcrum Racing Sport DB CX) to the CX bike?

As such I'm currently looking at these lot for the road bike:

http://www.justridingalong.com/jra-jawbone-wheelset-with-pacenti-sl25-rims.html

http://www.hopetech.com/product/stans-alpha-sp24/

http://www.huntbikewheels.com/colle...-disc-brake-road-bike-wheelset-tubeless-ready

http://www.wiggle.co.uk/fulcrum-racing-5-lg-disc-brake-wheelset-bolt-thru-c-l/?lang=en&curr=GBP&dest=1&sku=5360724265&ci_src=18615224&ci_sku=5360724265uk&utm_source=google&utm_term&utm_campaign=UK_PLA_Components&utm_medium=base&utm_content=mkwid|sxUPW3bRC_dc|pcrid|67090789142|pkw||pmt||prd|5360724265uk

Riding 10-speed and will be using 25mm rubber. Any opinions/experiences/alternative suggestions welcome. I'm leaning towards the JRAs at the moment, but that's more to do with the fact that they're made in Sheffield and have cool-looking Pacenti rims than any knowledge I have of the quality of components!
Cheers.

 

[EasyPeez]

Your Fulcrums have done 4500 miles? I'm not impressed. That's a few months' off-season training. I have a set of wheels I built in 1992 which have an estimated 120 000 kms on the clock with only minor truing - perhaps five times in that period. But, to each their own. If your requirement is less than mine, then what works, works.

I wasn't boasting about my wheels, simply pointing out that experience to date suggests they are more than durable enough for my needs. I now see that I have confused strength with durability; I hope you'll be patient with me as my knowledge of engineering and physics is virtually nil!
As to my requirements, if spending circa £350 on wheels I'd hope to get 15+ good years out of them at around 3,000 miles a year (I now have a second bike so my mileage would be split between the two), ideally replacing bearings no more than every other year. I obviously don't want wheels that will fail after a few years, but would be happy to shed some spokes and some rim weight and get 15 years, rather than have heavier wheels that lasted 20 years.

You seemed to have missed some posts on here where we discussed durability vs strength in wheels. The two must not be confused. Again, search with me as author and those keywords and you'll find plenty. 24 spokes may be strong enough but certainly not durable.

Yep, have looked those up and think I get it now. So, all other things being equal, wheels with 28 spokes would last me longer than wheels with 24 spokes. But then wheels with x number of spokes would last 9.5 stone me longer than the same wheels would last 13.5 stone Dave?
All wheels are strong enough for me and Dave, but the more spokes, the longer the wheels will endure generally, and the more stress that is applied by rider weight the more spokes are required to achieve the same level of endurance - is that it?
Does quality not come into play here though? Isn't it possible that a 24 spoke wheel that is expertly laced and built with top quality spokes will outlast a 28 spoke wheel that is built with inferior parts and/or workmanship?

Brass doesn't corrode like aluminium does. It developes a patina and goes darkish but it doesn't corrode with big white crystals that jam the nipple onto the spoke and it also doesn't develop stress cracks after a few hundred thousand cycles. Brass nipples have an effective infinite life and on top of that, are easy to turn, even after many years. They don't lock themselves onto the spoke.

Thanks for clarifying.

UK riding is no different from any other type of riding. A pothole will dent a 100 spoke wheel just like it will dent a 20 spoke wheel. Further, no type of riding is any different from any other type. Chris Hoy and I require exactly the same wheels if we were to do the same load-distance. Wheel fatigue (rim cracking spokes breaking) is a factor of the loading (rider's mass) and number of loaded cycles the wheels undergo, hence load-distance. Torque, even extreme torque, only increases tension in spokes by about 5% (in the pulling spokes and decreases tension by 5% in pushing spokes) whereas your weight can do it up to 30%. If you are a Chihuahua, a 28 spoke wheel will be durable for you. St Bernards require 32 or 36.

Ok, so given this, and given that I am more Chihuahua, and given that I'm looking for some wheels to last me 15 years or so, do you still think a 24 spoke count is "ridiculous"? And if so does that mean that you think most modern road wheels are ridiculous? I don't ask to be facetious, but because 16-24 spokes seems to be the norm and I am genuinely struggling to see any off-the-shelf road wheels at over 24 spokes. Would your take on this be that they sacrifice weight for life-span as they are meant for racing and that it's not the wheels that are ridiculous, but the average rider who opts for such wheels? Or that it's the manufacturers who are creating a form of built in obsolescence wrapped in marketing spin to keep naive punters buying new wheels every few years when their old ones give out?

"I assume you have no truck with the recent 5* Best in Test Cycling Plus mag rating?"

I am a foreigner, so I don't know what the above means. Is truck the same as beef? Further, I have made my views clear on cycling magazines and have done reviews of reviews in this forum. I'm almost certain that if you are referring to a review in a cycling magazine, it is rubbish. Their journalists are not trained as engineers or even have high school science behind them and just regurgitate rubbish they read as kids in yesterday's rubbish cycling magazines.

I think "beef" is a (relatively) new US slang import. To "have no truck" with something means to have no time for/wish no association with. So yeah, my assumption that you have no truck with the 5* review in Cycling+ would be accurate!

Thanks again for helping to educate me. Looking again at my options pasted above, would you see any of these as good value? They all have 24 spokes or less so I'm guessing not?!
Other than spoke count and brass nipples (which the Hopes and Hunts have) what else should I be looking for? Seems all modern road wheels have cartridge bearings....is there a way to tell which have the better bearings, or are all cartridge bearings much of a muchness? Recommendations for makes of hub/spokes/rims?

Thanks, Andy

 

[gbb]

I wasn't boasting about my wheels, simply pointing out that experience to date suggests they are more than durable enough for my needs. I now see that I have confused strength with durability; I hope you'll be patient with me as my knowledge of engineering and physics is virtually nil!
As to my requirements, if spending circa £350 on wheels I'd hope to get 15+ good years out of them at around 3,000 miles a year (I now have a second bike so my mileage would be split between the two), ideally replacing bearings no more than every other year. I obviously don't want wheels that will fail after a few years, but would be happy to shed some spokes and some rim weight and get 15 years, rather than have heavier wheels that lasted 20 years





Thanks, Andy

The maths suggest you want 45K miles, divided by 2, so 20K plus miles. The hubs are the easy bit to look after but I suspect you've overlooked the availability rims and spokes. Factory built may not be the easiest to find replacement components....perhaps a pair of handbuilt are much more suitable to your long term requirements.

 

[bonsaibilly]

The maths suggest you want 45K miles, divided by 2, so 20K plus miles. The hubs are the easy bit to look after but I suspect you've overlooked the availability rims and spokes. Factory built may not be the easiest to find replacement components....perhaps a pair of handbuilt are much more suitable to your long term requirements.

Why "divided by 2"?

 

[gbb]

Easy quotes...
As to my requirements, if spending circa £350 on wheels I'd hope to get 15+ good years out of them at around 3,000 miles a year (I now have a second bike so my mileage would be split between the two....

 

[gbb]

Unless he's intending using one set of wheels between two bikes of course...

 

[bonsaibilly]

Unless he's intending using one set of wheels between two bikes of course...

Or the other bike is completely separate and he means 300 miles per year on the first bike for 15 years...

 

[bonsaibilly]

Or the other bike is completely separate and he means 300 miles per year on the first bike for 15 years...

*3000

doh

 

[EasyPeez]

The hubs are the easy bit to look after but I suspect you've overlooked the availability rims and spokes. Factory built may not be the easiest to find replacement components....perhaps a pair of handbuilt are much more suitable to your long term requirements.

What, like the handbuilt wheels I linked to above? - "lovingly hand-built into outstanding wheels by experts with thousands of builds to their names" - The JRA and Hunt are handbuilt, the Hopes machine built and hand finished.
Did you mean wheels that are completely built from scratch? I thought handbuilt wheels are still generally made with factory/brand components (Shimano hubs, Pacenti rims, Sapim spokes etc) aren't they? If so I don't get why finding replacement components would be any different?

Or the other bike is completely separate and he means 3,000 miles per year on the first bike for 15 years...

Yes, that's what I meant - the other bike is just a hack bike and will eventually inherit the hand-me down Fulcrums so need not come into consideration here. Cheers

 

[gbb]

What, like the handbuilt wheels I linked to above? - "lovingly hand-built into outstanding wheels by experts with thousands of builds to their names" - The JRA and Hunt are handbuilt, the Hopes machine built and hand finished.
Did you mean wheels that are completely built from scratch? I thought handbuilt wheels are still generally made with factory/brand components (Shimano hubs, Pacenti rims, Sapim spokes etc) aren't they? If so I don't get why finding replacement components would be any different?


Yes, that's what I meant - the other bike is just a hack bike and will eventually inherit the hand-me down Fulcrums so need not come into consideration here. Cheers

Apologies. I missed that bit.

 

[Yellow Saddle]

I wasn't boasting about my wheels, simply pointing out that experience to date suggests they are more than durable enough for my needs. I now see that I have confused strength with durability; I hope you'll be patient with me as my knowledge of engineering and physics is virtually nil!
As to my requirements, if spending circa £350 on wheels I'd hope to get 15+ good years out of them at around 3,000 miles a year (I now have a second bike so my mileage would be split between the two), ideally replacing bearings no more than every other year. I obviously don't want wheels that will fail after a few years, but would be happy to shed some spokes and some rim weight and get 15 years, rather than have heavier wheels that lasted 20 years.

There is another factor you have to consider if you want your wheels to stay with you for 15 years and that is component availability. It is almost certain that you will not find parts for boutique wheels in even 5 years time, not 15. Rims become damaged by potholes or just wear out, pawls break, bearing end caps corrode etc etc. All of these are proprietary parts and will not be available for long. Already some 5 year old Campagnolo wheels are heading for the bin because some simple, cheap parts are just not available. To guarantee longevity you have to build wheels using standard parts such as standard spokes and nipples, standard rims with a history of hanging around (Mavic Open PRO, DRC ST 17 etc etc). I'm also not sure anyone can fulfill your dream of having wheels last 15 years rather than 20, but sacrifice a spoke or two. There are too many variables but I just have to ask why? Why why why bother? Either just buy the latest fashion and replace them as and then they fail or a new colour becomes the rage or get something that you never think about again. Clearly these two options suit different personalities. I tend to keep my bikes for decades, my cars for up to 500 000 kms and just want to be bothered with getting and researching new stuff all the time. I'd rather go for a ride, take some photos and have a beer afterwards. Some of my best friends buy new bikes every year, new wheels every 6 months and have new cars all the time for "tax" purposes. Yet, we get on. Decide who you are and b

Yep, have looked those up and think I get it now. So, all other things being equal, wheels with 28 spokes would last me longer than wheels with 24 spokes. But then wheels with x number of spokes would last 9.5 stone me longer than the same wheels would last 13.5 stone Dave?
All wheels are strong enough for me and Dave, but the more spokes, the longer the wheels will endure generally, and the more stress that is applied by rider weight the more spokes are required to achieve the same level of endurance - is that it?
Does quality not come into play here though? Isn't it possible that a 24 spoke wheel that is expertly laced and built with top quality spokes will outlast a 28 spoke wheel that is built with inferior parts and/or workmanship?

Yes, that's it and yes, quality comes into play as well. Two people can build identical wheels with identical components but only the builder who understands stress relieving in steel will have a durable wheel. The other one will have produced wheels with spokes breaking periodically. The quality of the builder is paramount. Further, any builder who knows his/her stuff will not be building with low spoke count exotica. Firstly the components (rims and hubs) for such wheels are not readily available and secondly, they don't want to have comebacks. A good wheel lasts a lifetime.

Ok, so given this, and given that I am more Chihuahua, and given that I'm looking for some wheels to last me 15 years or so, do you still think a 24 spoke count is "ridiculous"? And if so does that mean that you think most modern road wheels are ridiculous? I don't ask to be facetious, but because 16-24 spokes seems to be the norm and I am genuinely struggling to see any off-the-shelf road wheels at over 24 spokes. Would your take on this be that they sacrifice weight for life-span as they are meant for racing and that it's not the wheels that are ridiculous, but the average rider who opts for such wheels? Or that it's the manufacturers who are creating a form of built in obsolescence wrapped in marketing spin to keep naive punters buying new wheels every few years when their old ones give out?

Who am I to say that going shopping in a Lamborghini is ridiculous, or owning exotic wheels is ridiculous. You must decide what you want, who you are and weight up the facts (or not). The boutique wheel industry is caught between a rock and a hard place. Most of it is their own doing but still. Consumers make poor choices because the truth is inconvenient and boring. As far as most people go, the best wheel is the lightest wheel. Have a look at any review and you'll see that. We have proved the fallacy of such physics here on this very forum, complete with calculations, the physics etc etc. But no-one is interested. They get their education from bike magazines and believe stuff that is written. Therefore, the best wheel is one with the fewest spokes and smallest bearings. Who cares about durability? Tomorrow I want the newest latest and maybe that fashion is paired spokes or spokes arranged in threes or big fat spokes made from Zircon or flexible spokes made from Kevlar or how about carbon blades or even better, carbon tubes? Maybe we can even get the word nano and technology in there as well.


I think "beef" is a (relatively) new US slang import. To "have no truck" with something means to have no time for/wish no association with. So yeah, my assumption that you have no truck with the 5* review in Cycling+ would be accurate!
[/QUOTE]

Thanks, I get it. I'll be trucking from now on. I thought trucks are lorries in this country but I get it. Post the 5* review and I'll review it.

Thanks again for helping to educate me. Looking again at my options pasted above, would you see any of these as good value? They all have 24 spokes or less so I'm guessing not?!
Other than spoke count and brass nipples (which the Hopes and Hunts have) what else should I be looking for? Seems all modern road wheels have cartridge bearings....is there a way to tell which have the better bearings, or are all cartridge bearings much of a muchness? Recommendations for makes of hub/spokes/rims?

I'm really not going to look through a list of links and choose wheels for you. One you are in the 24-spoke game your choices may as well be emotional. I can't choose your emotions and say what connects with you. It may be the sound of a freehub, the colour of a rim or the Italian flag on the hub. I just don't know. But brass nipples and a hint of stress relieving would be a good start. Shimano and Campag wheels don't have cartridge bearings. All cartridge bearings are much of a muchness and they're consumables in anyway. Soon you'll be thinking of replacing them with ceramic nanotube bearings in anyway.

 

[bonsaibilly]

Get two of these http://www.evanscycles.com/products...PBiBpgqOePK3fAFgtNqoEpeJT891zAY4w5BoCykTw_wcB

And some 32 hole hubs - Shimano Tiagra will do, and then ask around at your local bike shops to see if any can/will build wheels for you?
bb

 

[EasyPeez]

It is almost certain that you will not find parts for boutique wheels in even 5 years time

Fair enough. But what is a boutique wheel exactly? One with less than 28 spokes?

I just have to ask why? Why why why bother?

Why bother what? Trying to discern what the best wheels are that I can reasonably afford? Trying to work out if a 24 spoke wheel might work for me?
Because a) I am not a rich man and want to buy something that will work well and last but also b) because I ride a lot of hills and sometimes ride quite fast and would rather have some wheels that aid me in this type of riding but don't last forever than some wheels that outlive me but are an encumbrance to accelerating and/or climbing quickly. I am not interested in fashion but am not purely concerned with sturdiness either. As a relative newcomer to cycling and an ignoramus to physics and engineering I don't understand much of what I read in wheel specs; I don't trust advertising jargon so have come here for advice. Perhaps I ought to be seeking this advice from a wheel-builder instead, and perhaps when I feel a bit more knowledgeable I will, but not knowing any, and therefore not trusting any, I turned to CC first.

The quality of the builder is paramount

Can you recommend any?

Post the 5* review and I'll review it.

It's perfunctory at best -

I'm really not going to look through a list of links and choose wheels for you. One you are in the 24-spoke game your choices may as well be emotional. I can't choose your emotions and say what connects with you. It may be the sound of a freehub, the colour of a rim or the Italian flag on the hub

Now you are being facetious!
I wasn't suggesting you should guide my emotions. I'm not looking to make an emotional choice here anyway. I did not know brass nipples were better, now I do. I have no idea what constitutes "a standard rim with a history of hanging around" - you quote Mavic Open Pro as such; the Hope option I linked to offers a build with this very rim. It was practical pointers like this I was hoping for, not for you to be my wheel spirit guide
(Though given I'm looking at disc wheels isn't it inevitable that most rims will be new as road discs are a fairly new thing?)

 

[bonsaibilly]

Fair enough. But what is a boutique wheel exactly? One with less than 28 spokes?


Why bother what? Trying to discern what the best wheels are that I can reasonably afford? Trying to work out if a 24 spoke wheel might work for me?
Because a) I am not a rich man and want to buy something that will work well and last but also b) because I ride a lot of hills and sometimes ride quite fast and would rather have some wheels that aid me in this type of riding but don't last forever than some wheels that outlive me but are an encumbrance to accelerating and/or climbing quickly. I am not interested in fashion but am not purely concerned with sturdiness either. As a relative newcomer to cycling and an ignoramus to physics and engineering I don't understand much of what I read in wheel specs; I don't trust advertising jargon so have come here for advice. Perhaps I ought to be seeking this advice from a wheel-builder instead, and perhaps when I feel a bit more knowledgeable I will, but not knowing any, and therefore not trusting any, I turned to CC first.


Can you recommend any?



It's perfunctory at best -


View attachment 118372



Now you are being facetious!
I wasn't suggesting you should guide my emotions. I'm not looking to make an emotional choice here anyway. I did not know brass nipples were better, now I do. I have no idea what constitutes "a standard rim with a history of hanging around" - you quote Mavic Open Pro as such; the Hope option I linked to offers a build with this very rim. It was practical pointers like this I was hoping for, not for you to be my wheel spirit guide
(Though given I'm looking at disc wheels isn't it inevitable that most rims will be new as road discs are a fairly new thing?)

I don't know but I would imagine the fact that you're putting a disk brake in the centre doesn't mean you couldn't lace up a disk hub onto a "conventional" rim..

 

[Yellow Saddle]

Fair enough. But what is a boutique wheel exactly? One with less than 28 spokes?

Boutique wheel is slang for fancy factory-built wheel posing as something that will make you faster and more attractive to the opposite sex.

Why bother what? Trying to discern what the best wheels are that I can reasonably afford? Trying to work out if a 24 spoke wheel might work for me?
Because a) I am not a rich man and want to buy something that will work well and last but also b) because I ride a lot of hills and sometimes ride quite fast and would rather have some wheels that aid me in this type of riding but don't last forever than some wheels that outlive me but are an encumbrance to accelerating and/or climbing quickly. I am not interested in fashion but am not purely concerned with sturdiness either. As a relative newcomer to cycling and an ignoramus to physics and engineering I don't understand much of what I read in wheel specs; I don't trust advertising jargon so have come here for advice. Perhaps I ought to be seeking this advice from a wheel-builder instead, and perhaps when I feel a bit more knowledgeable I will, but not knowing any, and therefore not trusting any, I turned to CC first.

Why bother with all the agonizing. You are on a hiding to nowhere, that's why. A 24-spoke wheel has no advantages over any decent wheel. Going faster by bolting on a boutique wheel is a myth that we have dispelled here in detail. Again, search for the thread with me as author and keywords such as acceleration, momentum and rotating mass (perhaps even red wheels). We did the math and thinking behind various claims made by the industry. We have quantified the advantages (or not) in understandable units with clear science explained in layman's terms.

Can you recommend any?

I am not originally from the UK and have retired from the cycling business before I came here so I can't recommend a good wheelbuilder with honesty. chap on here, @Spoked Wheels talks the right talk when it comes to stress relieving, understanding the value of sensible components etc. give him a try, I'd say. I think he's being too modest and should be in this debate.

Maybe I should start building wheels in my spare time again.

Now you are being facetious!
I wasn't suggesting you should guide my emotions. I'm not looking to make an emotional choice here anyway. I did not know brass nipples were better, now I do. I have no idea what constitutes "a standard rim with a history of hanging around" - you quote Mavic Open Pro as such; the Hope option I linked to offers a build with this very rim. It was practical pointers like this I was hoping for, not for you to be my wheel spirit guide
(Though given I'm looking at disc wheels isn't it inevitable that most rims will be new as road discs are a fairly new thing?)

If you are not making an emotional choice then you would not be looking at 24-spoke wheels. They are inferior in every aspect of your requirements. I often used to lay out the facts to my customers and sometimes, just sometimes, someone wants this or that component just because. I've done that on occasion, I've even purchased a car without going for a test drive. We had a raging fight here with someone who tried to rationalize his choice of nice red wheels. First he tried magazine science. Then he dabbled along with the real science and finally he said, damn it, I want them 'cause I wanted them. You can't argue with that and that is fine.

You ask for pointers. Here goes:

1) Standard spokes with elbows, mushroom heads and threads. These will be made from stainless steel, double-butted and from one of the recognized nd proven manufacturers namely DT Swiss, Sapim, Wheelsmith, WTB or Pillar. They will have a 2mm thread so that any standard nipple will work with it.
2) Standard brass Nipples. These don't corrode, can be tuned 20 years after assembly and don't develop stress cracks. They are available in black and silver only. Don't be tempted by sexy red nipples. Coloured nipples are anodized and only aluminium can be anodized. Aluminium nipples are rubbish.
3) Standard rims. These will be made from aluminium, in a low profile box section or low-profile aero. Examples to look at are Mavic Open PRO, Mavic CXP33, DRC ST-17 etc. Drilling 28 (for you) or 32 if you want to do some touring. The reason for choosing rims with a history is because a) they are proven and b) when you have to replace them, they are still available. You can't just swap rims to different types because they all require spokes of different lengths. You want to re-use your spokes and minimimise costs when the rims do dent or buckle in an accident.
4) Standard hubs. No fancy paired spoke designs or straight-pull spokes or such nonsense. They will have flat flanges drilled for elbow spokes. Taiwanese and Chinese brands come and go. Get classics - New Old Stock (NOS) Campag Records will be fantastic but so is Ultegra or if you want to spend money, Dura Ace. If you choose hubs with cartridge bearings, why not something like Hope?
5) Spoke design. The spokes must be crossed 3X for disc brake use. Don't fall for radial lacing or any other fancy mixed patterns. Also, the spokes must be double-butted. You can choose the 2mm-1.8mm-2mm style for economy or the 2mm - 1.5mm - 2.mm style for saving a bit of weight (there, I've said the W word) but increasing durability by a factor of many. However, building with the latter requires special skill. The builder should understand which spokes on the f front wheel left side should be crossed which way.

Many of the super retailers such as Chain Reaction have started selling hand-built wheels. The one pair from CR I examined three years ago were shocking. Hand built is no guarantee of anything.