No more 3-speed Brompton C-Lines in 2023

[berlinonaut]

Bad news for British Brompton buyers: For 2023 Brompton once more cleaned up their portfolio: The 3-speed S/A is now gone from the regular C-line portfolio, the "C-line utility" is no more. If you want a 3 speed hub you now have to go for the low end A-line model.
A bit of a strange decision as the 3-speed has been very popular in the UK (whereas in most other countries the 6-speed seems to be the most popular solution).

 

[brommieinkorea]

Didn't like the 3 speed, always in the wrong gear and not enough weight savings or simplicity to justify the limited gearing. It does sadden me a little to see less choice now though. Since it's a new patent and all perhaps Brompton will sink more resources into and spread out the new 4 speed across more models.

 

[berlinonaut]

Personally I do not like the 3-speed too much as well and favor the 2-speed. But everyone's taste is different. I think the decision has mainly two reasons:
1. to differenciate A, C and P line models
2. to rise margins as possibly most C-line buyers who would have gone for a 3-speed will now upgrade to a 6-speed and possibly only few downgrade to an A line. The more as - as far as I know - at least for the time being the A line is I think only sold through Brompton directly.

In terms of adding to the portfolio I've always wondered why the ti-rear frames do have the addons for Brompton's three speed cabling despite they are only sold as four speed dreailleurs. Now I've heard rumors that they would work on a 3*4 (possibly similar to the 6-speed: hub + sprocket gears) - this would make sense and bring the P-Line to a new level that cannot be achieved otherwise and possibly thruogh that also a rise in customers for the P line.

 

[brommieinkorea]

Did not know that the P line had the fittings for internal hub gearing. My "super light" is a 6 speed though. Yes 3×4 drive train does sound like it might offer a good spread of speeds. I usually leave the hub in 2nd and shift the derailleur so on flattish terrain the 2 speed seems like a great idea.

 

[tinywheels]

one things for sure brompton need to get their shoot together on the gearing issue.
The bikes crying out for gearing upgrades, has been for years.

 

[berlinonaut]

Did not know that the P line had the fittings for internal hub gearing.

This pic is from the Brompton webpage. I made it less dark, so details are more easy to spot. On the rear frame there is the bit attached to the frame that holds the plastic bit that redirects the cable for the hub gears. Completetly unnecessary on a four speed derailleur only bike that P and T line have been until now. Still it is there, from day one on. So I assume there have been plans from the beginning to put a BWR based gear setup into the P-line (or to at least have the option to). Otherwise the extra processing step to weld the thingy to the ti rear frame would probabyly have been avoided.

 

[berlinonaut]

The interesting bit is: What would the outcome be if you manage to combine the BWR with the four speed derailleur. With the current sprockets (11, 13, 15, 18) you'd end up by an impressing 402% spread - in comparison to 302% on the 6-speed BWR. But with the current 50t chainwheel the high gear is at pretty useless 9,47m development.
If you use Brompton's 44t chainwheel things start to become interesting - a low gear of 2,07m is better than anything Brompton had until now for mountains (apart from the Schlumpf mountain drive) and the high gear is still at 8,34m. So an even smaller chainwheel like 42 or 39 becomes a valid option - and while finally becoming a kind of mountain goat you still save 1kg of weight in comparison to a common 8-gear hub. Gear spacing would be nicely most of the time with the gear pairs 4/5 and 8/9 being too close to make a difference.
The question remains how mentally easy or complicated shifting becomes in a setup is in practice given that many people find the 6 speed BWR confusing already.

https://ritzelrechner.de/?GR=BBWR&KB=44&RZ=15,13,11,18&UF=1330&TF=74&SL=2.6&UN=KMH&DV=development

 

[12boy]

Sadly I don't get meters of development being only able to think in gear inches. I have been thinking about getting a p line and putting 58 and 38 tooth chainrings on just like I have on my 2010 Brompton which has 11 15 17 sprockets. The 3 speed/4 sprocket combo doesn't do a lot better in terms of gear range, and the inconvenience of manually shifting on the rare occasions I need the lower gears doesn't make up for the weight gain. Just sayin.

 

[berlinonaut]

Sadly I don't get meters of development being only able to think in gear inches. I have been thinking about getting a p line and putting 58 and 38 tooth chainrings on just like I have on my 2010 Brompton which has 11 15 17 sprockets. The 3 speed/4 sprocket combo doesn't do a lot better in terms of gear range, and the inconvenience of manually shifting on the rare occasions I need the lower gears doesn't make up for the weight gain. Just sayin.

There two kinds of people: Those who think in Meters of Developent and those who think in gear inches.
Luckily enough the guy behind Ritzelrechner.de thought of both. Here you go: https://ritzelrechner.de/?GR=BBWR&KB=44&RZ=11,13,15,18&UF=1330&TF=74&SL=2.6&UN=KMH&DV=gearInches

 

[rogerzilla]

Can the 4 speed mech be pre-shifted without pedalling? The brain has difficulty coping with a left shifter that wants you to keep pedalling, and a right shifter that prefers you to stop pedalling when gear changing. The 2-speed mech, with all its springs and over-travel of the lever, neatly gets around this as it can be pre-shifted.

 

[12boy]

I totally forgot to run the comps with the BWR hub....getting in to Rohloff territory Thanks Berlinaut.

 

[brommieinkorea]

Like how the graphic shows the relationship between gears even though metres of development means nothing to me as well. Interestingly the 6 speeds available on a Brompton is similar to the actual gearing available on old fashioned 10 speeds (only 6 non-replicated gears even though you had 2 x5). My biggest complaint with Brompton gearing is it just isn't low enough. Already have the 44 tooth chainring maybe rigging a 40 to the front would change it up.... It is great for flat land but useless in the mountains (the USA has horrible roads frequently going straight up the mountain)

 

[Kell]

The question remains how mentally easy or complicated shifting becomes in a setup is in practice given that many people find the 6 speed BWR confusing already.

Personally, I think it might make it feel a little more 'traditional'. Old 10 speed racers were a 2x5 set up rather than the 1x10 you get with some modern MTBs and Gravel Bikes. it would probably help to make it feel more sequential if you had the number of sprockets > than hub gears.

At the minute, my most used gears are 4/5 which means a double shift every time. It would be nice to have more of a spread for each hub gear.

Having said that, I now find I don't really need 6th so much these days, so having more gears on the top end doesn't really appeal to me that much, but having closer ratios would make it much more usable.

The only other thing I would say is that aren't the rear triangle different widths on the 4-speed and the 3/6 speed? I'm sure when the 4-speed was announced I asked if it could possibly be used in conjunction with BWR and was told no, because of the width of the rear end.

 

[T4tomo]

The interesting bit is: What would the outcome be if you manage to combine the BWR with the four speed derailleur.

that would be a very very useful set up and quite flexible to cater for tourers / mountain goats / speedsters with a variation of chainring size.

 

[ukoldschool]

@Kell having done the calcs for this previously on a table I made, it seems to show that you could fit the Brommieplus 3 cog rear set up (11/14/17), and switch your front cog to 54t, you would then have nearly the same gearing on 5th and 6th as you currently do on 4th and 5th, with the benefit of them both being on the +/- shifter.
Bike gang also make a kit for the rear which is slightly cheaper, but the Brommieplus kit also includes a new internal mechanism for the +/- shifter, which turns it into an indexed 3 (with the bike gang you have to use an aftermarket friction shifter).
These are in metres development rather than gear inches as I'm a metric child

Brommieplus kit