No wonder cyclists are hated

[Pblakeney]

Arguing about which came first irrelevant now. It's pretty obvious roads these days are designed and built for motorised vehicle use.

If there was a nationwide, good, purposebuilt cycle path system then it wouldn't be an issue. What is issue is vehicles, cyclists, horses and in some cases pedestrians all share same space so conflict occurs at times. Cycle paths as they exist at present are often badly maintained and or in busy areas cars park in them so any cyclists using them are forced to divert either around them into traffic or on pavement area.

Point is that cyclists are perfectly entitled to use the roads. The road infrastructure is perfectly fine while current laws are safe and clear.
Where it goes wrong is when drivers get impatient and ignore the rule of law, or are simply incompetent.

 

[Binky]

Point is that cyclists are perfectly entitled to use the roads. The road infrastructure is perfectly fine while current laws are safe and clear.
Where it goes wrong is when drivers get impatient and ignore the rule of law, or are simply incompetent.

Of course they are, motorways aside but fact is roads are designed primarily for vehicles.

As I've said before, it's not the mode of transport used or the infrastructure used it's the people using them. Hence get good and bad drivers and cyclists.

Maybe UK should adopt the Spain/Mallorca style roads where there is a wide "hardshoulder" style area which cyclists can pretty safely use. Way lower volume of traffic there though. I'm thinking of Mallorca where I've done a lot of cycling with no problems at all. Part of that is the road structure but also mindset of motorists which is a lot better than here in UK.

 

[Dogtrousers]

Or a lot going only slightly higher.

Or just one is travelling at close to the speed of light.

 

[Dogtrousers]

... it's not the mode of transport used or the infrastructure used it's the people using them. ...

Maybe UK should adopt the Spain/Mallorca style roads where there is a wide "hardshoulder"

You seem confused. You say it's not an infrastructure problem so you propose an infrastructure solution

 

[Pblakeney]

Of course they are, motorways aside but fact is roads are designed primarily for vehicles.

As I've said before, it's not the mode of transport used or the infrastructure used it's the people using them. Hence get good and bad drivers and cyclists.

Maybe UK should adopt the Spain/Mallorca style roads where there is a wide "hardshoulder" style area which cyclists can pretty safely use. Way lower volume of traffic there though. I'm thinking of Mallorca where I've done a lot of cycling with no problems at all. Part of that is the road structure but also mindset of motorists which is a lot better than here in UK.

There is not enough space to accommodate that without knocking down buildings or buying farmland at great expense so will never happen.
Drivers could be patient but apparently that is asking too much.

FWIW, 95%+ of drivers around here are absolutely fine but I avoid major towns and cities.

 

[Binky]

You seem confused. You say it's not an infrastructure problem so you propose an infrastructure solution

Ah Pavlovs dog is here.

It's not the infrastucture it's the users. However, I suggested a change as that would help don't you think? If every driver/cyclist/whatever obeyed the law and used roads with care and attention this thread wouldn't exist as there would be no conflict between users.

However, that seems unlikely to change so next best thing is changing road layout so at least vunerable users have a bit more space. Hence the "Maybe UK should adopt the Spain/Mallorca style roads where there is a wide "hardshoulder" style area". Clue was in the maybe.

I also said that if the UK had a nationwide purposebuilt cycle network that would help but seems a tad unlikely.

 

[Binky]

There is not enough space to accommodate that without knocking down buildings or buying farmland at great expense so will never happen.
Drivers could be patient but apparently that is asking too much.

FWIW, 95%+ of drivers around here are absolutely fine but I avoid major towns and cities.

Agree it's not going to happen and as I also said roads are designed primarily with vehicles in mind. It was just a thought going on what I've experienced many times cycling abroad. Even over there when it's a busy road it gets a bit hairy so only really works on the quieter less main roads.

 

[Oldhippy]

Peter Walker's 'Bike Nation' addresses this subject and he shows numerous examples of how well this is done in so much of Europe. The UK is decades behind the curve and the political will is nearly at zero to even consider what needs to happen.

 

[Solocle]

Actually pedestrians were around before horses were ridden so horse riders and cyclists are borrowing pedestrian infra so my point still applies, we are using the infra created for other users.

Of course that assumes all roads are on the lines of previous routes and that they were actually built for horses and not the carts in the first instance of their existence. Also, there are routes that are newer and were built for motor vehicles too. So many pedantic points to be made here that you are possibly better to accept that roads are for motor vehicles by modern design and the space at the sides of them are for pedestrians. within that we are the interlopers that do not fit the designed for users. I mean what came first, roads for cycles or roads for carts and carriages then later the horseless carriage?

Whatever the true history and your views on this the reality is that modern roads are part of the planning process for motor vehicles. Pavements at the side of the roads for pedestrians. Cyclists have been left to take what is permitted to them. Usually long after those routes were already "owned" by other users. That is real world situation.

Probably the most extreme example I know of. The A2 is the Roman Watling Street for a substantial length of it. Including here:

And, there are no prohibitions on traffic that may use the carriageway.

Although this section is the Dartford bypass, so 1972 vintage, and no shared path alongside.

 

[Alex321]

Of course they are, motorways aside but fact is roads are designed primarily for vehicles.

Bicycles are vehicles.

As I've said before, it's not the mode of transport used or the infrastructure used it's the people using them. Hence get good and bad drivers and cyclists.

Absolutely

Maybe UK should adopt the Spain/Mallorca style roads where there is a wide "hardshoulder" style area which cyclists can pretty safely use. Way lower volume of traffic there though. I'm thinking of Mallorca where I've done a lot of cycling with no problems at all. Part of that is the road structure but also mindset of motorists which is a lot better than here in UK.

I think new roads now tend to be built either with such a shoulder, or with a cycle/shared use path alongside or parellel.

But there aren't all that many new roads being built, and it isn't so easy to add such a thing to existing roads which don't already have wide verges.

 

[Binky]

Bicycles are vehicles.


Absolutely



I think new roads now tend to be built either with such a shoulder, or with a cycle/shared use path alongside or parellel.

But there aren't all that many new roads being built, and it isn't so easy to add such a thing to existing roads which don't already have wide verges.

Yeah I didn't put the motorised bit like I had earlier but it was fairly obvious what I meant especially in the context of the reply I had made.

It's pretty obvious roads these days are designed and built for motorised vehicle use.

 

[Dogtrousers]

I think new roads now tend to be built either with such a shoulder, or with a cycle/shared use path alongside or parellel.

This is true, but we are left with some truly awful, dangerous roads built to the cheapest possible price in the 50s-70s with little consideration for anyone. Crossing roads are simply cut off. Villages are sliced in two. I'm thinking particularly of the A249 between Maidstone and Sittingbourne. It just slices across the landscape with no regard for anyone or anything.

Although I would say that it's not true that the majority of roads were designed for motor vehicles. Simply because the majority of roads, by distance* are (in England and S Wales at least) lanes and B roads that are pre 20th century in origin. They weren't designed at all, they just emerged. They've been metalled, but not massively changed since they were used for horses and carts. And there's no way we should even want to put separate cycling infrastructure on them. They are genuinely shared spaces and if a driver comes across cyclists, animals, farm vehicles, horses, pedestrians whatever then they just have to wait until the way is clear, which may take some time.

* Source: I looked at a map. There are loads of lanes, and comparatively few major roads. I suppose the balance may be tipped a bit by 20th century urban roads but I still think the B roads win.

 

[Binky]

They are genuinely shared spaces and if a driver comes across cyclists, animals, farm vehicles, horses, pedestrians whatever then they just have to wait until the way is clear, which may take some time.

The exact same rules apply to all roads where bikes are permitted not just back lanes and B roads.

 

[Dogtrousers]

The exact same rules apply to all roads where bikes are permitted not just back lanes and B roads.

Indeed, but consideration is rightly (IMO) given to adding cycling infrastructure to some - eg new trunk roads, urban roads which are designed primarily for motor traffic.

But such consideration isn't given, and IMO shouldn't be given to the many thousands of miles of back roads that make up the majority* of the road network. These were not designed with motor vehicles in mind.

*Source: pure guess

 

[Fastpedaller]

The B1145 near my home is one of the longest B roads in the British Isles, from Mundesley in the East all the way to Kings Llyn. There are a few places where changes have taken place (eg. road widening , the odd roundabout) but it's largely unchanged and is a very pleasant route avoiding the A-roads (we have no Motorways in Norfolk)