No wonder many dislike cyclists

[Andy in Germany]

I am not saying that pedestrians should not use a bit of common sense on a busy crossing to make up for the bad riding of some cyclists, so we just have to accept that the most vulnerable should just bear the risk...as they have to with idiot car drivers?

When I passed my driving test I was taught to look not just at, but beyond the tail/brake lights of the car in front to anticipate possibly slowing down or stopping.

When cycling, as I don't ride in a peleton, I adopt the same approach.

It's good practice and actually very easy.

Amazon and delivery van drivers are not excused bad driving by cyclists, pedestrians or other motorists because "time is money", nor should drivers in front of them be excused bad driving because of who's behind them.

This is where presumed liability can help: in the same way as a motorist is considered liable for hitting a cyclist unless they can prove otherwise, if I hit a pedestrian on a crossing, I'm presumed to be at fault unless I can prove otherwise: if the police decide that I was not concentrating or riding too fast, and especially if the person on the crossing is classified as "vulnerable" I'm not only liable for prosecution; the health insurance can sue me for the cost of the ambulance and any treatment incurred.

With these consequences both drivers and cyclists are noticeably more careful around pedestrians.

 

[Andy in Germany]

Cycle paths are only useful if they lead to where you want to go.

No, it doesn't say that at all. It is nothing to do with cars.

And in this case, apart from those zebras, the cycle lane is much better to use than the regular carriageway. Most of it is bollarded off from the motor traffic, it is only that short section where the bus stops are that have the bus lane and no bollards (though there is still a kerb)

I do think they are a very poor design. The *should* have the cycle path running round the back of the bus stop, so that people will only be crossing it in ones or twos most of the time, rather than a whole busload.

It may not be the intention, but we can't control what people percieve, and if roads are carefully designed to make everything more convenient for motorists while cycleways are generally badly designed and require users to slow down and stop all the time, it's not unlikely that cyclists will percieve this as the message.

According to communication theories, the poor behaviour of some cyclists could be seen as a form of feedback telling the designer that their communication is not working and they need to communicate better.

Of course it could also be seen a a bunch of idiots being entitled and not thinking about vulnerable road users, and I realise those two interpretations aren't mutually exclusive.

 

[Andy in Germany]

• I agree the "floating" bus stops are a dumb idea, but what's the actual solution?
  • If you put the bus stop right next to the pavement, then the bus drivers can endanger cyclists when they pull in to the stop, or out from it.
  • If you use the "floating" bus stop, the buses aren't in the cyclists' way, but the pedestrians and cyclists can get in each others' way.
  • If you put the bicycle lane on the extreme left of the road, with the pedestrian path (and bus stop) to its right, then the pedestrians must cross the bicycle lane to reach the footpath and bus stop.
• The inflammatory article about the cyclists is a PERFECT example of outgroup homogeneity effect: basically it's saying that all cyclists are bad just because a few do dumb things. Meanwhile, every year, huge numbers of people are killed by motorists doing dumb things, but that doesn't attract anywhere near the same level of media outrage.

Australia has the same problems, by the way: we tend to follow the UK in our general approach to roads and transport.

Tübingen has tried a fourth option at one major bus stop: cycleway down the middle, then buses. I dion't know who came up with that one. Fortunately cars are restricted on that road, but it's still unnerving until you get used to it.

 

[Deeferdonk]

 

[Deeferdonk]

If there is such a high volume of cyclist traffic and pedestrians that this is considered an issue, and pedestrians can't cross safely because there aren't regular and large enough gaps in the traffic, then a zebra crossing is the wrong choice and it should be a light controlled crossing.

Or with the costs of installing and maintaining the infrastructure it would probably be more cost effective to recruit a local pensioner on minimum wage for the hours of rush hour to be a lollypop lady (or lollypop person in these enlightened times!)

 

[Alex321]

Tübingen has tried a fourth option at one major bus stop: cycleway down the middle, then buses. I dion't know who came up with that one. Fortunately cars are restricted on that road, but it's still unnerving until you get used to it.

You mean the cycleway is between the bus lane and the other motor vehicles?

That sounds reasonable, provided there is sensible provision for when the bus lane or cycle way end.

 

[rogerzilla]

All of these solutions seem worse than a normal road and bus stop.

 

[matticus]

This is VERy off-topic, but:

I understand empathy to be a two-way street? If you display such the expectation is that it is returned?

eh? citation please?

Do you never have empathy for someone far away (e.g. on TV news), or someone you read about??

 

[Andy in Germany]

Tübingen has tried a fourth option at one major bus stop: cycleway down the middle, then buses. I dion't know who came up with that one. Fortunately cars are restricted on that road, but it's still unnerving until you get used to it.

You can see it on street view here.

 

[Andy in Germany]

If there is such a high volume of cyclist traffic and pedestrians that this is considered an issue, and pedestrians can't cross safely because there aren't regular and large enough gaps in the traffic, then a zebra crossing is the wrong choice and it should be a light controlled crossing.

Or with the costs of installing and maintaining the infrastructure it would probably be more cost effective to recruit a local pensioner on minimum wage for the hours of rush hour to be a lollypop lady (or lollypop person in these enlightened times!)

Or a system that makes the light go red when a bus stops there until it leaves. This is used on the tram in Freiburg where platforms are often in the middle of the road.

 

[N0bodyOfTheGoat]

The only floating bus stops I know of are on Itchen Bridge and thankfully, I've only used that bridge at all a generous handful of times in 20 years. When I've ridden on the cycle path past the floating bus stop, the pavement and stop were deserted.

The other modern cycle lane design I hate is like the one on Inner Avenue just away from Southampton city centre, with a cycle lane on the road while heading north, that goes by a few popular roads turning left towards Shirley. I'd love to know how many cylists have been effectively "left hooked" there by vehicles.

 

[Punkawallah]

This is VERy off-topic, but:

eh? citation please?

Do you never have empathy for someone far away (e.g. on TV news), or someone you read about??

No.

 

[rogerzilla]

The only floating bus stops I know of are on Itchen Bridge and thankfully, I've only used that bridge at all a generous handful of times in 20 years. When I've ridden on the cycle path past the floating bus stop, the pavement and stop were deserted.

The other modern cycle lane design I hate is like the one on Inner Avenue just away from Southampton city centre, with a cycle lane on the road while heading north, that goes by a few popular roads turning left towards Shirley. I'd love to know how many cylists have been effectively "left hooked" there by vehicles.

Roadside cycle lanes leading into roundabouts are lethal, as you are at the mercy of left-turning cars (or worse, lorries). There was one on my old commute. I always rode in the car lane.

 

[Alex321]

Roadside cycle lanes leading into roundabouts are lethal, as you are at the mercy of left-turning cars (or worse, lorries). There was one on my old commute. I always rode in the car lane.

They seemed to work well in France when I was there last year on a Rhone/Saone river cruise. Although the roundabouts where I followed them weren't super busy, there was a reasonable amout of traffic around, but drivers seemed to be aware that the cycles on the path had priority.

But the cycle lanes were marke by green paint all the way around. This being an example of one I rode around

 

[blackrat]

I understand empathy to be a two-way street? If you display such the expectation is that it is returned?
I could be wrong, (as I don’t do it myself) but mimicking someone else’s feelings as a way to bond seems conger-productive in the long term.

"..conger-productive" ?