newfhouse
Resolutely on topic
Not necessarily. 30920 is just the SIC code that covers bicycle manufacturers.
https://assets.publishing.service.g...527619/SIC07_CH_condensed_list_en.csv/preview
Not closing down anymore: Bob Jackson Cycles
- Thread starter avecReynolds531
- Start date
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https://assets.publishing.service.g...527619/SIC07_CH_condensed_list_en.csv/preview
classic33
Leg End Member
Possible, but neither the old Bob Jackson nor Woodrups carry that number.
RichardB
Slightly retro
- Location
- West Wales
As I've said above, I used to pass the shop every day on my way to work at Jimmy's. Lusted after a Bob Jackson for years - or a Woodrup, or an Ellis Briggs. I'd buy one for sure.
But that's the problem. I'd buy one, not several.
IanSmithCSE
Guru
- Location
- Worcester, Worcestershire
Good morning,
Looking at the announcement
New Owners,
New Location,
New manufacturing equipment,
None of the old staff,
"Small" price increase,
Increase in production speed
Continuing current range of off the peg with some updates
Partly owned by a bespoke builder.
This seems to suggest to me that the new owners have very clear plans on what they want to do and that is to make as many frames as the market wants. A step up from mass produced unbranded cro-mo but a step down from a fully bespoke frame.
I find myself agreeing with the view that the steel frame market is small, but Trek sell the 520 and Specialized the Sequoia, along with Genesis having the Croix/Tour de Fer in both 725 and 853 and as both a complete bike and frame only.
Ribble tried out a 525 frame and their current range includes a 725 bike, yes you can buy the frame only but it is cheaper to buy the whole bike and sell of the rest of the bike. :-)
So the market is not that small.
But I do wonder if the demand for frame only still exists, as it is gets harder to buy bits locally self assembly get harder and of course you are paying a much higher price buying the parts individually from various retailers.
I can easily see why a fully built Bob Jackson bike would sell in both the England and the USA, hand built in England steel frame coupled with the latest Shimano/SRAM/Campag. I am sure that it would sell in Wales/Scotland and NI but the "hand built in England" bit wouldn't be a selling point. :-)
Although unlikely I could also sea a 6/7/8 speed Bob Jackson drive train selling, "a traditional design and a long life drive train". Although I see the benefits of my 10 speed bike when riding fast, for pleasure I find the 8 speed fine, I could easily lose the 11t sprocket although it's a nice to have, making it 7 speed. Coupled with Bob Jackson hubs that only support 7 speed cassettes "allowing greater dishing and stronger wheels"
I imagine that the development costs of a brifter are quite high, but front and rear mechs? Clearly they would never be as cheap as Claris/Sora and maybe they are more complex than they appear, for example the springs might actually be quite specialised and need to be ordered in large numbers.
Although I have never ridden one I am a fan of the idea of the Classified hub gear, the two speed wireless hub that takes a cassette, which shows that the big three don't have the drive train market fully sown up for ideas.
Having been very positive about steel, the facts are that Planet-X has tried to sell both premium steel and unbranded cro-mo steel frames in the very recent past and does not do so now. The latest Raleigh 753 team replica still appears to be in stock in some sizes and the 525 replica took a long time to sell.
So could they offer aluminium or carbon frames? I really don't know how viable that is, I know that Out-of-Autoclave CF is well established but tooling up for formed aluminium seems out of the question and either seems to defeat the purpose of the brand anyway. To me it is now about the brand as much as the product, Taiwan makes a lot of steel frames very well and quite cheaply.
The old BJ site's prices initially looked very attractive but I found them confusing as the material for forks and stays was often not specified and there were upgrades to what I thought they would have been anyway! So I am not sure how much scope there is for prices increases before you get into fully bespoke territory or many potential customers think, yes I do like steel but "how much!"
I can't help but be pessimistic unless they offer full bikes.
Bye
Ian
Looking at the announcement
New Owners,
New Location,
New manufacturing equipment,
None of the old staff,
"Small" price increase,
Increase in production speed
Continuing current range of off the peg with some updates
Partly owned by a bespoke builder.
This seems to suggest to me that the new owners have very clear plans on what they want to do and that is to make as many frames as the market wants. A step up from mass produced unbranded cro-mo but a step down from a fully bespoke frame.
I find myself agreeing with the view that the steel frame market is small, but Trek sell the 520 and Specialized the Sequoia, along with Genesis having the Croix/Tour de Fer in both 725 and 853 and as both a complete bike and frame only.
Ribble tried out a 525 frame and their current range includes a 725 bike, yes you can buy the frame only but it is cheaper to buy the whole bike and sell of the rest of the bike. :-)
So the market is not that small.
But I do wonder if the demand for frame only still exists, as it is gets harder to buy bits locally self assembly get harder and of course you are paying a much higher price buying the parts individually from various retailers.
I can easily see why a fully built Bob Jackson bike would sell in both the England and the USA, hand built in England steel frame coupled with the latest Shimano/SRAM/Campag. I am sure that it would sell in Wales/Scotland and NI but the "hand built in England" bit wouldn't be a selling point. :-)
Although unlikely I could also sea a 6/7/8 speed Bob Jackson drive train selling, "a traditional design and a long life drive train". Although I see the benefits of my 10 speed bike when riding fast, for pleasure I find the 8 speed fine, I could easily lose the 11t sprocket although it's a nice to have, making it 7 speed. Coupled with Bob Jackson hubs that only support 7 speed cassettes "allowing greater dishing and stronger wheels"
I imagine that the development costs of a brifter are quite high, but front and rear mechs? Clearly they would never be as cheap as Claris/Sora and maybe they are more complex than they appear, for example the springs might actually be quite specialised and need to be ordered in large numbers.
Although I have never ridden one I am a fan of the idea of the Classified hub gear, the two speed wireless hub that takes a cassette, which shows that the big three don't have the drive train market fully sown up for ideas.
Having been very positive about steel, the facts are that Planet-X has tried to sell both premium steel and unbranded cro-mo steel frames in the very recent past and does not do so now. The latest Raleigh 753 team replica still appears to be in stock in some sizes and the 525 replica took a long time to sell.
So could they offer aluminium or carbon frames? I really don't know how viable that is, I know that Out-of-Autoclave CF is well established but tooling up for formed aluminium seems out of the question and either seems to defeat the purpose of the brand anyway. To me it is now about the brand as much as the product, Taiwan makes a lot of steel frames very well and quite cheaply.
The old BJ site's prices initially looked very attractive but I found them confusing as the material for forks and stays was often not specified and there were upgrades to what I thought they would have been anyway! So I am not sure how much scope there is for prices increases before you get into fully bespoke territory or many potential customers think, yes I do like steel but "how much!"
I can't help but be pessimistic unless they offer full bikes.
Bye
Ian
Last edited:
SkipdiverJohn
Deplorable Brexiteer
- Location
- London
Jacksons would be very unwise to try and branch out into carbon and alloy frames, IMHO. It's not their core market and there are loads of other players already in that market who have much bigger economies of scale. Their customer base are not that interested in such types of bike. Their reputation is building high quality new steel bikes and doing repair & refurb work on that type of bike. Importing and rebadging far-east frames as Bob Jacksons is also a risky strategy. They would be unlikely to sell a huge volume anyway and gaining a reputation as a rebrander, a "fake" British cycle company like Raleigh etc has now become, risks destroying their reputation for in-house steel builds.
I will never buy another new Raleigh, Dawes, or any other brand of bike that used to be made in the UK but who shut their factories and outsourced it all then just stuck their badges on imported bikes. To me, those brands are no longer genuine and are even dishonest because they use a British name for a foreign product.
Just a commodity like buying a bag of sugar in the supermarket. Jacksons don't want to go there, it won't turn out well for them.
I will never buy another new Raleigh, Dawes, or any other brand of bike that used to be made in the UK but who shut their factories and outsourced it all then just stuck their badges on imported bikes. To me, those brands are no longer genuine and are even dishonest because they use a British name for a foreign product.
Just a commodity like buying a bag of sugar in the supermarket. Jacksons don't want to go there, it won't turn out well for them.
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IanSmithCSE
Guru
- Location
- Worcester, Worcestershire
Good morning,
At this stage I am a confused what the plan is for Bob Jackson.
The way that I read the quotes in Cycling Weekly was that the new owners had a clear vision and by losing all the old staff were starting a new business with new ways and new objectives.
So I am not sure if the new model is to retain the refurb and repair business or be a semi volume brand and when it's broken it's broken and Woodrup takes the repair and restoration work.
Bye
Ian
At this stage I am a confused what the plan is for Bob Jackson.
The way that I read the quotes in Cycling Weekly was that the new owners had a clear vision and by losing all the old staff were starting a new business with new ways and new objectives.
So I am not sure if the new model is to retain the refurb and repair business or be a semi volume brand and when it's broken it's broken and Woodrup takes the repair and restoration work.
Bye
Ian
Last edited:
This is very true, I always build my bikes, starting with the frame and enjoying researching and resourcing the components, but the last two new bikes I have bought have been complete as it was a no brainer money wise, I have changed things on both, and still not spent as much as I would building from scratch.
matticus
Guru
Like Ferraris then - you buy one, someone else is in there for their 4th!
I know one person on this forum who has bought steel in 2020; after receiving his custom frame, he immediately ordered another (different) one from the same guy.
SkipdiverJohn
Deplorable Brexiteer
- Location
- London
There's always going to be some demand for new steel, but it has to suit the customer and it also has to be affordable if you are talking about more or less off the peg rather than individually custom fitted. Bob Jacksons frame pricing looked very reasonable for hand built Reynolds steel.
The market is never going to be huge though, because things like 531 or 525 frames have never been a throwaway item. Anyone who ever bought one new made a considered decision, so was likely to keep it a long time, and not just chuck it in a skip when surplus. Few high quality steel bikes are sold new today because there are still plenty of used ones around that can be bought for sub-BSO prices by those in the know.
As much as I admire the workmanship in a Bob Jackson frame, I have my 80's era Raleigh, Dawes, and Ian May frames that are pretty similar in quality. I am exactly the sort of rider that would buy a frame from someone like BJ, but I have no pressing need to because I have already got the same type of frames.
The market is never going to be huge though, because things like 531 or 525 frames have never been a throwaway item. Anyone who ever bought one new made a considered decision, so was likely to keep it a long time, and not just chuck it in a skip when surplus. Few high quality steel bikes are sold new today because there are still plenty of used ones around that can be bought for sub-BSO prices by those in the know.
As much as I admire the workmanship in a Bob Jackson frame, I have my 80's era Raleigh, Dawes, and Ian May frames that are pretty similar in quality. I am exactly the sort of rider that would buy a frame from someone like BJ, but I have no pressing need to because I have already got the same type of frames.
DRM
Guru
- Location
- West Yorks
If they don’t the new business will go the same way as the old one, bust, there’s simply not the trade for a hand built frame to be sustainable, however looking at the link to the .gov website they may well be getting into bikes for the disabled market, I don’t see anything wrong with selling a bread and butter bike that’s imported from the Far East , they’re not rubbish, they are built by a skilled work force, as a customer of a factory you can spec, within reason what you want and turn out a quality product, paint them in house, and offer with say from Tiagra to Ultegra, or the SRAM, Campagnolo kit, and get them sold, they need to get the cash tills ringing, it’s the only way
I haven't been in Woodrups for a long time probably 30 plus years, I don't know what else they sell but they still build some very nice bespoke stuff, so hopefully they know what they are doing, a mate has a lovely deep red 531 with a campag group set, in his loft, not ridden for 30 years, I don't think he will part with it.
Smokin Joe
Legendary Member
- Location
- Bare headed cyclist, Smoker
The only frame I've had built to order was a Woodrup back in 1971. Lovely it was too, Columbus tubing, cherry red with white panels and half chromed forks and stays. I bought it because I read that Barry Hoban's team bikes were built by woodrup.
It cost £30 at the time, £433 today according to the BoE inflation calculator. A similar frame from them today would be seriously north of a grand, which shows what a low volume niche market steel has become.
It cost £30 at the time, £433 today according to the BoE inflation calculator. A similar frame from them today would be seriously north of a grand, which shows what a low volume niche market steel has become.
SkipdiverJohn
Deplorable Brexiteer
- Location
- London
There's nothing inherently wrong with far east frames, I have hack MTB's from those sources. They're strong and they ride ok.
However, BJ won't have the market to themselves. Spa are already selling some decent enough welded 525/725 steel frames made to their spec, at attractive prices. BJ would have to compete for a slice of a fairly small pie.
Hand assembly, adjustment, and rectification must be the biggest single cost in bike manufacture. Even if you import the bits, if you put them together here you've got western labour costs, regulations, and business overheads.
If you can persuade the same customers to pay the same prices for an imported welded frame that they are used to paying for a locally-built lugged & brazed frame, then you may make more profit. You could just as easily make them decide not to buy from you at all though, stick with what they've already got, buy a secondhand lugged frame, or buy from someone like Spa.
Surviving is all about minimising the overheads of the operation, so you can afford to keep the pricing attractive whilst hopefully making some profit. That means running a tight ship in general and operating from premises with low outgoings.
IanSmithCSE
Guru
- Location
- Worcester, Worcestershire
Good morning,
A few pages back this thread diverged onto the new Raleigh 753 Team Replica.
Someone has built one up to close to original spec https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ti-Raleigh-753-40th-Anniversary-Bike-/114616435313
As a fan, the transfers just looks so wrong.
The rest of the build is mint and looks unused, rather than NOS, and at £2,150, if only....... what could have been....
Bye
Ian
A few pages back this thread diverged onto the new Raleigh 753 Team Replica.
Someone has built one up to close to original spec https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Ti-Raleigh-753-40th-Anniversary-Bike-/114616435313
As a fan, the transfers just looks so wrong.
The rest of the build is mint and looks unused, rather than NOS, and at £2,150, if only....... what could have been....
Bye
Ian
Last edited:
SkipdiverJohn
Deplorable Brexiteer
- Location
- London
I can't help thinking Raleigh missed a trick with these Team replicas, they could have done the job with so much more credibility.
For example, they could have got the details right, and they could have had the frames fabricated here - possibly even by engaging the services of former SBDU framebuilding staff. Some of those must still be around and of working/willing to work age. Would have been a nice touch to build the 753 ones using the same people who used to do it, and then the replicas would have been the real deal.
For example, they could have got the details right, and they could have had the frames fabricated here - possibly even by engaging the services of former SBDU framebuilding staff. Some of those must still be around and of working/willing to work age. Would have been a nice touch to build the 753 ones using the same people who used to do it, and then the replicas would have been the real deal.
