Not closing down anymore: Bob Jackson Cycles

[IanSmithCSE]

When I first heard of the 525 replica a few years ago I was excited, than I saw the specs and thought, if this was painted in any other colour I wouldn't even be looking at it.

Then when the 753 replica was announced I was wow, get the credit card out. Then the details on complete bikes were announced and again I thought its not really interesting. Lots of Dia-Compe, a brand that was always bottom end in my mind, 10 speed non indexed down tube shifters, I sort of get the point but also see it as proving a point and a frame made in Taiwan. If the frame wasn't in Raleigh team colours then I wouldn't even have looked.

I suspect that Raleigh 753 frame is heavy as it needs to support the older rider who bought it to remember their lighter youth, interesting to note that it appears to have been welded not silver soldered in part, even approval of this from Reynolds.

A while back BJ had a rant on their site about how 525 was introduced to replace 531 as 531 couldn't be TIG welded and how they wouldn't use it as it offered no benefit to the cyclist.

I'm not convinced that 753 is really anything noticeably better than 725, I did a bit of research on metals and it is seems to be possible that certain batches of 531/753 and 525/725 could be almost the same metal. I was brought up on 531 is manganese molybdenum which is better than chrome molybdenum but once you accept that the metal to make 531 was bought on the open market and there were differences in composition, the magic goes.

In the table above I have 3 versions of 531, each using Manganese Molybdenum steel with varying levels of chromium, the numbers are mid range of the averages and both the 531 with chromium may have zero chrome as it is a side effect.

Keith Noronha, MD of Reynolds has openly said that 531 has been different alloys over its life.

So again I lost interest as I see a £1,500 frame that is not what I dreamed to be.

This seem to suggest that even I don't really want a new steel frame, even though I may need one. Unnoticed until recently I found quite a bad rust spot underneath the front mech's mounting band.

If this does prove terminal I will likely ride my plastic bike more as I already have it and get a beater for the shopping duty. I might buy a Genesis steel frame but I won't be coughing up £2.7k on a 525 steel frame from Argos (https://argoscycles.com/new-frames/reynolds/)

The only thing about Genesis frames is that I am confused about what the forks and stays are made of.

Bye

 

[Johnsco]

It's just an importer using the name Raleigh and I doubt many of the current staff have much length of service or any real knowledge of the SBDU's designs.

........ and I suspect that most "employees" will be temps on the minimum wage.
That's how so-much of our world has become.
I'll stand correction if anyone knows different.

 

[SkipdiverJohn]

I suspect that Raleigh 753 frame is heavy as it needs to support the older rider who bought it to remember their lighter youth, interesting to note that it appears to have been welded not silver soldered in part, even approval of this from Reynolds.

A while back BJ had a rant on their site about how 525 was introduced to replace 531 as 531 couldn't be TIG welded and how they wouldn't use it as it offered no benefit to the cyclist.

I'm not convinced that 753 is really anything noticeably better than 725, I did a bit of research on metals and it is seems to be possible that certain batches of 531/753 and 525/725 could be almost the same metal. I was brought up on 531 is manganese molybdenum which is better than chrome molybdenum but once you accept that the metal to make 531 was bought on the open market and there were differences in composition, the magic goes.

Keith Noronha, MD of Reynolds has openly said that 531 has been different alloys over its life.

If this does prove terminal I will likely ride my plastic bike more as I already have it and get a beater for the shopping duty. I might buy a Genesis steel frame but I won't be coughing up £2.7k on a 525 steel frame from Argos

I'm not sure why modern 753 should be heavier, unless they are drawing it to thicker gauges like the ST version of 531 or the butting lengths are different, so the thinnest section in the middle is shorter which would result in heavier tubes. Raleigh may not have paid much attention to the weights of things like the BB shell, fork crown and lugs, having outsourced the job. High end frame builders used to be obsessive about such things on true racing bikes, maybe not so much on tourers.

Not sure why BJ would rant about 525, as I don't see why you couldn't brass or silver braze it in exactly the same way as 531. Columbus tubing is cro-moly, much like 525 and many brazed frames have been built from that. I've got lugged 501 cro-moly frames.

I see 725 as a very close relation of 753, and realistically just as good. Both are just heat-treated versions of the basic product, but with a slightly different metallurgical recipe.
There's bound to be small variations between steel batches just like I can sometimes detect slight differences between pints from different barrels of what should be the same ale. They are nominally the same, but not truly identical.

In your position, I would seriously look at the Spa Touring or Audax frames with steel forks if I wanted brand new steel and wasn't adamant about having lugged construction. The geometry looks sensible and so does the price tag.

 

[matticus]

If this does prove terminal I will likely ride my plastic bike more as I already have it and get a beater for the shopping duty. I might buy a Genesis steel frame but I won't be coughing up £2.7k on a 525 steel frame from Argos (https://argoscycles.com/new-frames/reynolds/)

Am I missing something - those Argos prices seems outrageous. Just looked up the 2017 Ribble 525 - £930 for a complete bike! (carbon forks as it 'appens like)

 

[SkipdiverJohn]

Do Argos actually build their own or are they contracting them out then finishing them in their own colours? If they do in-house, maybe they price up deliberately to keep demand down to the limits of their capacity? Why would you possibly struggle to build 300 x £900 bikes when you could easily build 100 x £2700 bikes and still get the same gross revenue?

 

[Gunk]

When I first heard of the 525 replica a few years ago I was excited, than I saw the specs and thought, if this was painted in any other colour I wouldn't even be looking at it.

They’re actually quite a nice bike, I bought mine last year used for less than a third of the original price. I’m personally not too fussed about it’s authenticity, it looks great, is very pleasant to ride and just a nice thing to own.

 

[SkipdiverJohn]

Nothing wrong with the 525 replica, and why not if the money is right? It is steel after all.
However, I get the impression the 753 version claims to be dimensionally correct and those enthusiasts with a specific interest in the Team bikes are saying it's nowhere near.
There's always a bit of a problem in trying to replicate a custom item for general sale, because individual pro riders will have had specific body proportions that might be some way from the "average" non-pro rider.
Do you then build an exact replica that may not fit quite a lot of your customers that well, or do you keep the constructional details (like BB type, lug pattern, tube junction mitres) correct but standardise things like top tube to seat tube proportions?
The complaints around the 753 version especially seem to be both the small details, and silly errors like getting the fork blade length a few mm out so the top tube doesn't sit level! Even the cheapest gas pipe jobs in the steel era at least managed to get their crossbars horizontal. When silly mistakes are found it gives the impression the frames were put together from whatever off-the-peg bits were easily available, rather than doing a faithful copy. No-one is going to whinge about their hi-tensile Europa being a bit different from the real thing, but if you market a bike as being a Team replica then the buyer is rightly entitled to expect accurate detailing.

 

[Gunk]

The Taiwanese replica Reynolds frames are not great quality, with mine the paint seems really thin and soft, it scratches and marks really easily. When I bought it there was also some rust at the top of the seat stays.

 

[IanSmithCSE]

Morning all

I'm not sure why modern 753 should be heavier, unless they are drawing it to thicker gauges like

I thought that they might be doing this on the grounds that some of customers might be heavier than the initial target audience for 753 to avoid warranty claims.

The 525 comments were on the BJ site a long, long time ago and I was never sure if they were just an attempt to distinguish the business and make them appear “real” as opposed to a bland mass producer.

Am I missing something - those Argos prices seems outrageous. Just looked up the 2017 Ribble 525 - £930 for a complete bike! (carbon forks as it 'appens like)

I would go with SkipDiverJohn on this, although Argos were never interested in volume a year ago something similar was around £1,500 although a lot for 525 it is a one off bespoke build and the 853 version is only £300 more.

The Dec 2019 prices page https://web.archive.org/web/20190829072733/http://argoscycles.com/new-frames/reynolds/

Argos are very much do everything themselves and the prices shown in this precovid link don’t seem bad for a genuine bespoke build.

When I last looked at Ribble they were offering a 725 frame at around £200 less than the same frame built up with Tiagra, buy the complete bike and ebay the bits. I never got the idea of the 525 frame with CF forks, who was the target market, I remember that the built bike got a review in the Guardian, maybe the readers of that type of review?
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2016/aug/20/ribble-reynolds-525-bicycle-review-helen-pidd

They’re actually quite a nice bike, I bought mine earlier this year used for less than a third of the original price.
I am not surprised that you enjoy yours, but the price you mention seems to me to be a good one for the bike itself, without a premium for a limited edition model, initially they were £2,000 making the 753 replica at £2,500 seem like good value. I remember that a lot of 525 price was the high specs wheels Campagnolo Record hubs against unbranded on the 753.

I have just been onto the Raleigh site and the 50, 53 and 61cm frames comes up with a low stock warning but 56 and 59cm don't nor do any of the full builds. So it might be worth worth waiting for a sale. :-)

Just looking at the Genesis site there are now two versions of the Croix De Fer frame
https://www.genesisbikes.co.uk/genesis-croix-de-fer-725-frameset-vargn21090
https://www.genesisbikes.co.uk/genesis-croix-de-fer-12-12-725-frameset-vargn21100
The older version was 725 main tubes, unspecified stays and unbranded Cro-Mo forks and the new one is 725 throughout.

The all 725 frame is £799 and “upgraded” to through axle ends, so slightly higher then a BJ once you've added the upgrade cost to the basic price.

Bye

Ian

 

[biggs682]

When i enquired about getting couple of tubes replaced on a rather bent frame i have in the loft i was quoted for 525 and was told it was easier to get hold of where as the majority of tubing was only being sold in framesets .

 

[matticus]

Am I missing something - those Argos prices seems outrageous. Just looked up the 2017 Ribble 525 - £930 for a complete bike! (carbon forks as it 'appens like)

I would go with SkipDiverJohn on this, although Argos were never interested in volume a year ago something similar was around £1,500 although a lot for 525 it is a one off bespoke build and the 853 version is only £300 more.

The Dec 2019 prices page https://web.archive.org/web/20190829072733/http://argoscycles.com/new-frames/reynolds/

Argos are very much do everything themselves and the prices shown in this precovid link don’t seem bad for a genuine bespoke build.

Thanks. (hadn't appreciated it was full custom with customer fitting et al) And I always forget about that web-archive site!

 

[BalkanExpress]

@SkipdiverJohn mentioned 753 certification. About a year ago I was looking for a certified builder to do a repair on a 753 frame. I was un contact with Reynolds and they replied that they are no longer certifying builders. I have mislaid the mail and am happy to be corrected if others know better and if they know what this means for previously certified builders (is this for life?)

 

[SkipdiverJohn]

I suppose Reynolds thinking is that steel is such a niche market these days, that anyone still in the game is going to be familiar with the requirement not to overheat the tubing.
In the early days Reynolds would not have wanted 753 to get a bad rep as a product that results in weak frames if overheated due to the thin gauges.
Most builders are going to use 525 or 725, and quite likely weld it. You could probably count on your fingers the number working with brazed 753.

 

[classic33]

Does Bob Jackson Cycles Limited now get to take over the trading name from Bob Jackson Cycles (1993) limited?

Having two companies trading, with similar names would have been confusing.

 

[classic33]

@SkipdiverJohn mentioned 753 certification. About a year ago I was looking for a certified builder to do a repair on a 753 frame. I was un contact with Reynolds and they replied that they are no longer certifying builders. I have mislaid the mail and am happy to be corrected if others know better and if they know what this means for previously certified builders (is this for life?)

Certification ceased with the sale of Reynolds tube division, by TI to a Taiwanese company.

The name was sold separately to the manufacturing side.