On the bike strength training

[Citius]

If people don't believe that, we should change the question. Why are British Cycling lying to us? What do the people (in part) responsible for three of the last four TdF winners have to gain from recreational cyclists doing strength and conditioning exercises?

Could it be your interpretation of the info is wrong? I already mentioned earlier that a couple of people I know are on BC performance development programmes. They do weights work (at least one of them does, so I'm guessing the other does too) - but this is only light 'conditioning' work, not designed to make their legs 'stronger' in any force generation sense (ie the dictionary definition of the word).

Conditioning work is an entirely different issue and there's lots of sound reasoning behind why any athlete would want to do that.

 

[Joshua Plumtree]

Take two comparable cyclists as has been mentioned. Send one of them to the gym for a couple of months of 'strength training'.
Most likely outcome, IMO - the one who didn't go to the gym would climb better than the one who did.

I spend 6-7 hours a week lifting weights, so I'm not in any way biased against strength training. Just don't think it has any transferable benefits for the cyclist. And, if anything, the almost inevitable increase in muscle mass is going to impact negatively.

If you want to increase power on a bicycle, then work on a combination of big and small gears both to improve your aerobic system and to illicit adaptions at the neuro - muscular level.

Just my take on it.

 

[adscrim]

Could it be your interpretation of the info is wrong? I already mentioned earlier that a couple of people I know are on BC performance development programmes. They do weights work (at least one of them does, so I'm guessing the other does too) - but this is only light 'conditioning' work, not designed to make their legs 'stronger' in any force generation sense (ie the dictionary definition of the word).

Conditioning work is an entirely different issue and there's lots of sound reasoning behind why any athlete would want to do that.

No, I don't believe my interpretation of the info is wrong. Weight work is strength work and conditioning work is for making the body stronger - I'm pretty sure BC don't advocate it so that people look better in lycra. Just because the purpose is not to increase a single rep maximum doesn't mean it's not strength work, and just because a squat isn't 150kg plus doesn't mean the exercise isn't making you stronger.

I believe the reason people bother to argue about this issue continually is that they see posters asking the question about squats and believe they are being given incorrect replies. If I was to come on here and say 'would my cycling benefit from me doing some gym work such as squats?', I believe (without checking) that they will be told no, squats are useless/you'll bulk up and actually be slower/no point you can't physically put any more weight through the pedals than you are carrying/etc

Actually I think the answer they should be getting is 'yes, strength and conditioning work can be complimentary to the cycling you are doing. It's highly probably that this will improve your cyling but should not come at the expense of time on the bike. Check the BC website, they have some excellent strength and conditioning exercises.'

In short, I think you might be hindering some peoples improvement with your black and white view of squats and strength work in general.

 

[Citius]

Weight work is strength work and conditioning work is for making the body stronger

This is probably where your misunderstanding is then. Weight work does not necessarily mean 'strength' work - it depends on what the objectives of the session are. Low weights would represent conditioning work because the exercise is sub-maximal, the objective is not hypertrophy and the result is not an increase in 1RM strength. Conditioning - as I said, that's different. Conditioning can be seen as improving the condition of the overall musculature, like working the muscles around the typical fibres used in cycling, or similar. If you could provide a link to the BC page, that would be useful.

Actually I think the answer they should be getting is 'yes, strength and conditioning work can be complimentary to the cycling you are doing. It's highly probably that this will improve your cyling but should not come at the expense of time on the bike. Check the BC website, they have some excellent strength and conditioning exercises.'

So explain how it is useful then. We can probably already agree that there is a place for conditioning work - but specifically how do you see strength work as being of benefit? And how are you defining strength?

In short, I think you might be hindering some peoples improvement with your black and white view of squats and strength work in general.

As I said - if you think I am mistaken, then point me to the evidence which demonstrates tangible benefit in strength work over the equivalent amount of time spent riding a bike at varying effort levels. The point that I am somehow responsible for holding people back because of this is utterly absurd...but well done for giving me my first laugh of the day...

 

[reacher]

Well theirs your answer you keep saying equivalant amount of time on the bike , no one is saying its better to strength train than ride a bike , you would have to be pretty clue less to say that any type of training such as core work or body conditioning or strength worth is not a benifet to a average cyclists ability to train better on a bike and age better as regards over all condition , if your Alberto contador than most would agree don't bother doing a squat session if your a middle aged desk jockey then yes it will improve your over all well being if your a natural talented 18 year old just get on the bike and ride And power is power strength is strength you can either use a bigger gear or spin a smaller one faster 2 exact abilitys make one guy stronger he will use a bigger gear there for go further with each turn of the pedal I can't see any other way to make that not work

 

[Citius]

Well theirs your answer you keep saying equivalant amount of time on the bike , no one is saying its better to strength train than ride a bike , you would have to be pretty clue less to say that any type of training such as core work or body conditioning or strength worth is not a benifet to a average cyclists ability to train better on a bike and age better as regards over all condition

But that's not what we've been talking about. The assumption from many on here is that there is some kind of performance benefit from incorporating strength work into a training programme (I thought you were saying that too). So you are saying that there is none?

 

[adscrim]

But that's not what we've been talking about. The assumption from many on here is that there is some kind of performance benefit from incorporating strength work into a training programme (I thought you were saying that too). So you are saying that there is none?

Are you sure that not what we've been talking about? That sounds exactly like what I've been talking about - strength and conditioning exercises that don't replace time on the bike but compliment it.

From British Cycling - "Strength and conditioning work is a key component of the training plans of all top cyclists."

 

[reacher]

Depends on who you are if your name is Alberto then probably not if your a average person then you have to look at what you have , if your over weight and have legs that have sat in a chair all your adult life and have no core strength to speak of then yes it will compliment your ability to train better feel better and ultimately make you a better athlete . You can't just pigeon hole this type of training and say its useless or it works too many variables in terms of application to individuals , plus the training is very complex for example take a guy in a gym who can squat 200 kilos power lifter type big heavy super strong ask him to do a pistol squat and he will fall on his arse most likely , strength and power do not equate to weight moved in one direction it means many things in relation to what sport your in and what parts your trying to strengthen

 

[Citius]

Depends on who you are if your name is Alberto then probably not if your a average person then you have to look at what you have , if your over weight and have legs that have sat in a chair all your adult life and have no core strength to speak of then yes it will compliment your ability to train better feel better and ultimately make you a better athlete . You can't just pigeon hole this type of training and say its useless or it works too many variables in terms of application to individuals , plus the training is very complex for example take a guy in a gym who can squat 200 kilos power lifter type big heavy super strong ask him to do a pistol squat and he will fall on his arse most likely , strength and power do not equate to weight moved in one direction it means many things in relation to what sport your in and what parts your trying to strengthen

I don't think I disagree with that. A couple of pages back, we were all talking about leg strength though (although possibly not you, tbf, as I don't think you had posted then)...

 

[Citius]

Are you sure that not what we've been talking about? That sounds exactly like what I've been talking about - strength and conditioning exercises that don't replace time on the bike but compliment it.

From British Cycling - "Strength and conditioning work is a key component of the training plans of all top cyclists."

I'm still trying to get you to define 'strength' - either you can't or you won't. Anyway, this is what you said a few pages back:

And the answer would be that current evidence suggests that it will improve our endurance performance on the bike.

Strength work in terms of performance was your point - you even tried posting links to papers to support this. Now, we are just talking 'conditioning', apparently. Either way, you are still yet to explain how it is useful, like I asked you. I also asked you to link to the BC page. You may be back-tracking, but you are leaving a trail...

 

[adscrim]

I'm still trying to get you to define 'strength' - either you can't or you won't. Anyway, this is what you said a few pages back:



Strength work in terms of performance was your point - you even tried posting links to papers to support this. Now, we are just talking 'conditioning', apparently. Either way, you are still yet to explain how it is useful, like I asked you. I also asked you to link to the BC page. You may be back-tracking, but you are leaving a trail...

How can this be both what I said a few pages back and be me back tracking? Strength - how strong you are. Strength training - increasing how strong you are. And to show I'm not back tracking I'll repeat that this doesn't have to be Chris Hoy squat reps. Just because the squats aren't 150kg plus, doesn't mean you aren't getting stronger.

I didn't try to post a link, I did post a link and it did support this. Go to the BC website, it's not difficult to find or have they somehow blocked you?

 

[Drago]

I've avoided this thread, but curiosity has got the better of me - how may of the people giving the benefit of their vast knowledge of strength training are actually weaklings who'd struggle to lift more than a knife and fork?

Mod edit: you don't have to be an athlete to understand training methods. All follow-up posts to this attempt at thread-derailment will be deleted.

 

[Citius]

How can this be both what I said a few pages back and be me back tracking? Strength - how strong you are. Strength training - increasing how strong you are. And to show I'm not back tracking I'll repeat that this doesn't have to be Chris Hoy squat reps. Just because the squats aren't 150kg plus, doesn't mean you aren't getting stronger.

I didn't try to post a link, I did post a link and it did support this. Go to the BC website, it's not difficult to find or have they somehow blocked you?

If you aren't getting stronger, how do you know if the weights are doing anything? You haven't ever articulated how more strength will improve your endurance cycling performance. That's all I'm asking. I can probably find the BC page, but if you provided a link, I would definitely know that we are both looking at the same document.

Let's try and get this done quickly before Drago's awesomeness dazzles us all....

 

[huwsparky]

What's the difference between strength and conditioning work? Are they not both effectively the same thing? As in exercises one would do OFF the bike to compliment training on the bike?

Anyway, this is another cracker!!

 

[adscrim]

If you aren't getting stronger, how do you know if the weights are doing anything?

Eh? If a tree falls over in the woods... Who said anything about not getting stronger?

You haven't ever articulated how more strength will improve your endurance cycling performance. That's all I'm asking.

I don't need to articulate it. You asked for a evidence, I provided evidence via a link (it was 5 years old but that was still more recent that anything posted in reply). Going on the pass this off as my own would be dishonest.