Other two wheelers (with engines)

[Bigbud]

I'm always interested in the relationship between cyclists and motorbikes being a rider of both, the situation in London must be bad and doesn't really represent the rest of the country I feel.

In Manchester there seems to be very few cyclists / motorbikes and we share the ASL's with no problems, not that we have that many of them and as pointed out on the whole its cyclists I see RLJ'ing, on pavements, riding the wrong way up one way streets and changing lanes without checking over there shoulders.

 

[captain nemo1701]

Here's a clip I found which illustrate why motorbikes shouldn't use the ASL:

http://www.youtube.c...o&feature=feedf

If motorcyclists feel so at risk they need to do this, then why not ditch the motorbike (they aren't an environmentally friendly form of transport anyway) in favour of a bicycle?.

My opinion of motorbikes isn't just something I developed after one guy almost knocked me off. It's actually ten years of commuting around Bristol and having to put up with this sort of thing all the time from scooter riders to the big boys on their Easy Rider machines. Unfortunately, in my experience, the bigger the machine, the more aggressive the rider - one guy on a huge bike with panniers etc actually swore at me for being in the ASL. Excuse me?- a cyclist in the cycle safety reservoir ????.

Not only has my safety been compromised on numerous occasions, but the safety of the motorcyclist as well. I recall one guy, so eager to get in front, rode his motorbike through the ASL almost into the middle of the crossroads. He failed to anticipate the turning circle of a bus and just managed to move out of the way as it came out of a side street.

I think the bike test should be tightened up about this, really. Going through the ASL over the second white line is an RLJ offence but is also bad road positioning.

Finally, folks have pointed out that cyclists RLJ etc. True, but it's a morally bankrupt argument to use this as an excuse to do some road law-breaking yourself. It's rather like saying that since some people steal, it's ok for you to do so. If you ride a motorbike, it has more power, can go faster, weighs more and therefore is capable of doing more damage in accidents. Thus, motorcyclists should take extra care out on the roads and respect cyclists a bit more. After all, one person's convenience at getting to the ASL could acually compromise a slower moving cyclist.

 

[Glow worm]

There's a lot of long straight flat stretches of road hereabouts that seem to be an invitation for a lot of motorbikers to go at absolutely mental speeds. I've even seen them doing wheelies as well as the usual mad overtakes. Apart from anything else why can't these tw*ts have their mid-life crises quietly?!

 

[captain nemo1701]

I'm with Glow Worm about the noise, which is also a form of pollution. Some motorbikes are so loud you can't hold a conversation with another human being in the street as they whizz past.

 

[Ivan Ardon]

Capt. Nemo, you do seem to have rather a bug up your behind about motorcycles and motorcyclists.

In over 30 years of cycling I've not once felt endangered by the actions of a motorcyclist, compare that to the number of times I've been placed in danger (or in one case knocked off) by the actions of a car driver, there's no comparison.

Comparing the average motorcyclist, driver and cyclist, I'd say the average motorcyclist is better than the average driver who is in turn better than the average cyclist. Yes there are exceptions such as 16 YO boys on scooters and mid-life crisis blokes on sports motorcycles, but there are bad drivers and cyclists out there as well. Been shouted at to "get out of the way" by 25mph roadies on shared use paths anyone? Had to take evasive action to avoid an unaware cyclist riding out in front of you or who just stopped in the middle of the road?

I'd take a look at the KSI figures for cyclists and direct your ire appropriately, rather than a pet peeve of yours.

 

[BentMikey]

The KSI figures for motorcyclists are rather worse, IIRC.

 

[tyred]

I have seen a few kamikaze motorcyclists in my time. But there again, I've seen kamikaze pedestrians, cyclists and drivers as well.

As a general rule, I find the majority of motorcyclists to be skilled and observant, far more so than the vast majority of car drivers (many drivers shouldn't be allowed to operate a wheelbarrow in a public place imo), probably more so than most cyclists I see and certainly more observant than most pedestrians.

 

[Norm]

Finally, folks have pointed out that cyclists RLJ etc. True, but it's a morally bankrupt argument to use this as an excuse to do some road law-breaking yourself.

That would be relevant if anyone was using that argument.

But they aren't so it isn't.

You have put all motorcyclists together. You have tarred them all with the same brush and called them all guilty of some fairly serious stuff based on one or two bad encounters. You are (wilfully?) ignoring the many bikers who don't fit your stereotype because they pass you without causing concerns. What you are doing is no better than those motorists who complain that every cyclist jumps lights and rides on pavements.

BTW, we will leave aside the deep hypocrisy in you now complaining that it was morally bankrupt when you were the first to mention RLJ's in this thread, it being just one of the accusations you threw at bikers

 

[nich]

My respect for most motorcyclists has gone up lately, most likely because I've just brought a scooter myself and commute 1 or 2 days into London on it, while the rest is done on the push bike.


I often feel safer on the push bike than I do on the scooter. With a motorbike you have to concentrate a lot more - with a helmet both your visibility and hearing are reduced, so you rely heavily on mirrors and shoulder checks.

Then you've got the added weight. It's harder to manouver at slow speed on a motorbike as they are heavy things - so much easier on a push bike.

If you screw up you stand a high chance of hurting someone, so your concentration levels are raised.

With regards to the ASL thing, I've never been bothered by motorbikes using them, but I've never experienced an ASL being totally blocked out by motorbikes - at least on my route in London.

The above video, that wouldn't bother me at all. The motorbikes will be off quickly, and it's not like the car behind will bump you.

Now imagine you have 5 or 6 cyclists in front of you in the ASL. That's more dangerous in my experience - some are slow, some are fast, you've got some at the back trying to cycle around the slower ones at the front. That's what happens everyday in London, and that's what I find dangerous

Anyway, Enjoy 2 wheels all

 

[captain nemo1701]

Norm-

Thankyou for your comments. However, I think you might have misunderstood the point I made about morally bankrupt arguments. One of the accusations that seems always levelled at cyclists is that we RLJ. Some do, most don't. But its seems to me that drivers and also bikers use this as an argument to justify their own misdemeanours. It's the 'everyone does it' argument. I'm sure that some motorcyclists out there will use this as a resaon to abuse the ASL. They may well say,'well, others do it, therefore so can I'.

I would also like to point out that I don't have a chip on my shoulder about bikers. My experiences are based on over a decade (as of last autumn) of cycle commuting in Bristol, a city which Mayor Boris and TFL always seem to highlight as a city where motorbikes in bus lanes works. Well, if Boris thinks it will help cut London congestion, he is sadly mistaken. Bristol has had bikers in bus lanes for about 15 years and we still have massive congestion problems. But I digress.

I cited the example of the right-turning motorbike who cut me up last year as the most dangerous example of bad riding. The guy had no regard for my safety or his own. More typical everyday experiences are sitting in the ASL, to be suddenly flanked by motorbikes. They must know they are breaking the Highway Code, but don't seem to care. I have lost count of how many times this happens. However, I do also realise that many bikers do not behave this way.

For example, on my walk back to my hotel in Waterloo last night, I crossed by an ASL. Six motorbikes entered in on red, one female scooter rider, two males on scooters and three other males on larger motorbikes. Four cyclists caught behind one biker who was blocking cycle feeder lane.
However, on Waterloo Road, I saw two bikers stop before the ASL, which actually was empty.

I do though, stick by my guns on my original point. If motorbikes want to be allowed in London bus lanes, they should respect the ASL. Sadly, this doesn't seem the case by what I observe at the moment as I move about London. Go and stand outside by any ASL, wait 5 minutes, and you'll probably see the same thing.

Interestingly, I read the 'Code of Conduct' which the motorcycle industry has drawn up with TFL. Theres no mention of not abusing cycle facilities. Maybe there should be.

 

[jonny jeez]

captain nemo1701, I struggle to sympathise with much of your post, perhaps that is more to do with the way you put it than the content itself. Plus ...as has been pointed out before, I possess a built in bias, as I consider myself a very considerate motorcyclist/cyclist/driver and greatly dislike being painted by a broad brush statement (when in any of these modes of transport).

However I do agree that the ASL is there for pushbikes and not motorcycles. It is vital to allow cyclist to escape being "stranded" on the left of vehicles at lights, (although a competent cyclist would never usually find themselves in that predicament) and to ensure that following traffic can SEE a cyclist is near them before setting of.

That said, I sometimes find it difficult to see whether there *is* an ASL when filtering past traffic on the right (when on my motorcycle) and sometimes, in unfamiliar roads will find myself stuck with a choice of encroaching on the ASL or sitting to the right of traffic at lights (usually in front of a central island and often vulnerable to traffic from the opposite side of the road). In that situation, and fully accepting that it my own error for not undertaking sufficient forward observation, I will sit in the ASL …as far to the right as possible and never in the way of a cyclist.

For this reason I wonder if the right hand side of an ASL should be for Motorcycles and the left for Bikes as…for the most part, it is unwise for a cyclist to “set” off from the right hand side of an ASL, having to then traverse the traffic to try and get into primary or secondary position.

I wonder if that could work, to *enforce* the message to motorcyclist's

 

[summerdays]

For this reason I wonder if the right hand side of an ASL should be for Motorcycles and the left for Bikes as…for the most part, it is unwise for a cyclist to “set” off from the right hand side of an ASL, having to then traverse the traffic to try and get into primary or secondary position.

I wonder if that could work, to *enforce* the message to motorcyclist's

What if the cyclist wants to turn right ... ?

I will generally stick myself in the middle of an ASL if I'm going straight on and the ASBox is busy (keeps out of the way of the dafter people who stick on the left in the gutter where ever they are going and who tend to be slower starting when the lights change). Sometimes I do wonder whether it would help to actually mark arrows in the ASL to help more cyclists understand where they should position themselves.

As a Bristol cyclist I haven't had that many problems with PTW'ers ... I'm sure I've had some but none come to mind ...hwoever that could be an effect of the time I'm commuting ... immediately after school drop off rather than in full rush hour when the ASL boxes are significantly busier on the occasions I've had to go in early. (This morning's problem was a lorry unloading with the front wheels in the ASL box - on a busy 2 lane bit on the A38 Ashley Road junction).

 

[jonny jeez]

What if the cyclist wants to turn right ... ?

I hadnt even thought of that...bang goes my theory!

 

[benborp]

You've probably seen it already as I've posted in another thread, but I think this is proof that there are some motorized two wheelers that have a degree of empathy with cyclists. It's certainly the best response I've ever had to a near miss SMIDSY by quite some margin.

Near head-on collision (loud swearing)

 

[Norm]

You've probably seen it already as I've posted in another thread, but I think this is proof that there is some motorized two wheelers have a degree of empathy with cyclists. It's certainly the best response I've ever had to a near miss SMIDSY by quite some margin.

Near head-on collision (loud swearing)

Shoot, I just puckered up hard enough that I'll need new cover on this chair! That was a close one.

My wife had her car written off by someone doing that, I've seen it done to a police car with lights and sirens going along Castle Terrace in Edinburgh, sometimes there's little that you can do with high viz and flashing lights that doesn't just add to the distractions around us.

Flipping close, though, Ben, nice work avoiding that one.