Pensions

[Nearly there]

I quietly worry about the future and as a joke say to the wife ill be working til i drop and deep down think this will be the reality of many

 

[Flying Dodo]

It is totally wrong therefore for this government to tear this up based on the lie that it is no longer affordable (it is still affordable because the last government took steps which included increasing our contributions and altering pension terms for staff starting since 1995 to make sure it was

If you actually do some research, such as reading the Hutton report, you'll find that they're not affordable on the current basis.

 

[screenman]

Why do public servants think they are the only one's that serve a customer. Who do they use when they spend their over generous pensions.

In reality it would be nice if we all got the same pensions for the amount paid in, for example over a lifetime say I accrue £100,000 into my pot I will get a pension of say £4,500, whilst the public servant will get 1/2 final year salary. Not many public sector workers on £9,000 I would guess.

 

[ASC1951]

Why do public servants think they are the only ones that serve a customer?

It's ridiculous the way councils and government departments have started calling us 'customers'. We aren't - a customer is someone who has a choice of where to get goods and services, or whether to bother with them at all.
If people using the job centre, for instance, had a choice of one over the road and counter staff and managers lost their jobs if it went bust - well, we would get very different treatment when we went in to see them.

 

[Longshot]

I quietly worry about the future and as a joke say to the wife ill be working til i drop and deep down think this will be the reality of many

Indeed. Me included.

 

[SpokeyDokey]

What is probably exceptional to public servants is the many who go above and beyond every day for the love of the job and the people they serve - where there is no financial reward for doing so.

Now that really is a blinkered view and to me typifies the 'I'm a hero' attitude of some private sector workers.

Very sorry to tell you this but there are an awful lot of people in the private sector who have the same outlook towards their job too!

Re pension contributions. I'm afraid that you are not living in the real world if you think that the country can afford these levels of pensions. Whilst contributions may have risen for later career entrants the amount of money poured in by the Government far outweighs employee contributions.

Re: more money offered in the private sector. I can't argue with your own circumstances of course but to me that seems the eternal bleat of the public sector and call me cynical but I think that if reality matched this then the public sector would be struggling to recruit to fill the exodus. I cannot for one moment believe that the majority of public sector employees who consider themselves underpaid and struggling to survive (as the press would have us believe) would not be off in a shot if they were to receive significantly more pay in a private sector role.

 

[mrandmrspoves]

If you actually do some research, such as reading the Hutton report, you'll find that they're not affordable on the current basis.

I have read the Hutton report along with a number of responses to it. Show me where it states that the NHS pension scheme is not affordable! Please note that I have already pointed out that not all public sector pensions are the same.

 

[asterix]

I quietly worry about the future and as a joke say to the wife ill be working til i drop and deep down think this will be the reality of many

The question then is whether there are enough jobs to support those 'working til they drop'. The sort of jobs the elderly can handle. Suppose you have no pension and your health deteriorates? Will you be able to afford euthanasia under your private health scheme that replaced the NHS?

 

[mrandmrspoves]

Now that really is a blinkered view and to me typifies the 'I'm a hero' attitude of some private sector workers.

Very sorry to tell you this but there are an awful lot of people in the private sector who have the same outlook towards their job too!

Re pension contributions. I'm afraid that you are not living in the real world if you think that the country can afford these levels of pensions. Whilst contributions may have risen for later career entrants the amount of money poured in by the Government far outweighs employee contributions.

Re: more money offered in the private sector. I can't argue with your own circumstances of course but to me that seems the eternal bleat of the public sector and call me cynical but I think that if reality matched this then the public sector would be struggling to recruit to fill the exodus. I cannot for one moment believe that the majority of public sector employees who consider themselves underpaid and struggling to survive (as the press would have us believe) would not be off in a shot if they were to receive significantly more pay in a private sector role.

Not a blinkered view at all!
Nor do I think I am a hero - I have clearly indicated that I owe society a debt, and that I am reasonably well paid...BTW you wrote private sector workers when you meant to write public sector.

I have not claimed that all public sector workers are hard working or dedicated. Nor did I claim that private sector workers don't work hard or are not dedicated - but within the private sector the motivation is often for different reasons.

What level of pensions are you talking about when you say this country can't afford them?
I have already pointed out that not all public sector pensions are the same. The old NHS scheme paid a maximum of 50% of final salary after 40 years service - The Police pension paid 60% of final salary after 30 years service - so let's not lump them together! (The police did pay a higher % of their salary for their pension)
If you look at the NHS pension scheme it did and still does pay a surplus to the treasury every year and has done for years.....so it IS affordable.

Again you suggest that my claim of being headhunted is a bleat...even though I have already acknowledged that I am reasonably well paid and many people would be understandably envious of my terms and conditions!
You also suggest that there would be a difficulty recruiting if pay and conditions were poor.....go and look in your local hospital and see where the nurses come from. Here in Norfolk about a 3rd of the qualified nursing staff were recruited from Portugal, Spain or the Philippines because until recently (when this government started making huge cuts to the NHS budget.....they call this "Cost improvements") hospitals could not recruit enough nurses.

So to summarise....
I do not think public sector staff are all heroes.
I do not think public sector staff are badly paid.
I do not think that all public sector pensions were sustainable without being reviewed.

However I also KNOW that not all public sector staff have Gold Plated pensions....

I do strongly believe that this government is playing divide and conquer and responses such as yours show that they are succeeding.

 

[asterix]

Now that really is a blinkered view and to me typifies the 'I'm a hero' attitude of some private sector workers.

Very sorry to tell you this but there are an awful lot of people in the private sector who have the same outlook towards their job too!

So can't we have heroes both sides of the wall?

Why is it that the big bosses have to be paid handsomely lest they desert the sinking ship whereas the low paid have no such powers of persuasion? Clearly the latter have no-one to fight their corner. The government don't care and their better paid fellow citizens don't care and the best paid fellow citizens can stash all their money in an overseas tax haven and pay zilch in taxes.

Oh well, back to the middle ages it is then.

 

[mrandmrspoves]

It's ridiculous the way councils and government departments have started calling us 'customers'. We aren't - a customer is someone who has a choice of where to get goods and services, or whether to bother with them at all.
If people using the job centre, for instance, had a choice of one over the road and counter staff and managers lost their jobs if it went bust - well, we would get very different treatment when we went in to see them.

Tesco's also call people customers .....and depending on where you live, you don't have much choice either!
I used to work in a somewhat dubious shop in Norwich where customers were known as Mug Punters......

 

[ASC1951]

Tesco's also call people customers .....and depending on where you live, you don't have much choice either!

That's because they are customers. Shops ultimately prosper or go bust according to whether they offer what people want at a price they are willing to pay for it. There is no such sanction with public sector services, which is why notions of user satisfaction or value for money can be completely ignored; and sometimes that shows.

 

[ASC1951]

They should either be ignored properly or embraced fully. Anything between is a waste of time.

Yes, I would agree with that.

 

[mrandmrspoves]

That's because they are customers. Shops ultimately prosper or go bust according to whether they offer what people want at a price they are willing to pay for it. There is no such sanction with public sector services, which is why notions of user satisfaction or value for money can be completely ignored; and sometimes that shows.

I was joking hence the smiley - but that is not completely true. In some areas Tesco have such a monopoly that they have killed off any competition so there is little choice. I'm not knocking them for being successful - that's business......but an open market model does not always lead to enhanced choice for customers/consumers/mug punters!

 

[Flying Dodo]

I have read the Hutton report along with a number of responses to it. Show me where it states that the NHS pension scheme is not affordable!

It is affordable, if lots of other Government spending gets cut in the longer term.

The whole point about the Hutton report was to suggest changes to make Government schemes sustainable long into the future. For example:-

Page 24

Analysis by the Pensions Policy Institute confirmed that the current tiered contributions in the NHS scheme are insufficient to offset the higher benefits received by high flyers.

Page 26 (referring to all Government schemes)

The Commission determined that longer term structural reform of pensions was required, because current schemes had proved unable to respond flexibly to changes in working lives and longevity. They had also resulted in an unfair balance of risks between scheme members and taxpayers. The inherent problems of final salary pension schemes, particularly in terms of fairness and sustainability, led the Commission to decide that alternative models should be chosen for the future.

Page 45 (referring to all Government schemes)

the Commission’s analysis shows that at present under the existing final salary schemes too many risks are faced by government and the taxpayer. As such, it is the Commission’s view (outlined in more detail in Chapter 7) that all members of the current defined benefit public service pension schemes should be moved to the new schemes for future service.

Page 55 (referring to all Government schemes)

The interim report identified that the main driver of increased costs for public sector pension schemes in recent years was members living longer than expected. Government had effectively provided members with certainty that their pension would be paid for life at retirement, and when this cost more than expected, government bore the bulk of the increased cost. One of the reasons government bore most of this extra cost was because, until the reforms of the last few years, the existing schemes provide little flexibility for government to pass on any additional costs to members, other than by raising contributions paid by active members (who may not be those who benefitted from the certainty provided by government).

Page 88/89

This general increase in life expectancy has led to increases in the amount of time a public service pension scheme member can expect to spend in retirement. Chart 4.A compares the expected proportion of adult life spent in retirement for members retiring from the NHS Pension Scheme at age 60 over the past 50 years. The chart shows that current pensioners retiring at 60 can expect to spend around 40 to 45 per cent of their adult lives in retirement, compared with around 30 per cent for pensioners in the 1950s. This increase has been partially offset by increasing the Normal Pension Age (NPA) to 65 for new entrants into the scheme, though most members in public service pension schemes have a NPA of 60 or less.

Although greater longevity is a positive development, the unprecedented rise in life expectancy since the schemes were set up has meant that providing public service pensions
has become significantly more expensive than was anticipated. This change has had a profound effect on the sustainability of public service pensions but has not been the focus
of informed public debate. The cost of pensions in 2004 in the NHS was a third higher than it would have been if assumptions about life expectancy were the same as those in
1955. Similar results could be calculated for the other unfunded schemes. Since employee contributions have risen little over the period this increase in the cost of making pension
commitments has mostly been paid for by employers and taxpayers.