Police and the Bow Roundabout

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Are Police officers taught a "script" to make an arrest go their way if it gets to court? You know, certain key phrases that will sound damning if read in court?

Nope. Quite the opposite - we are taught the importance of accuracy, openness and honesty, and discouraged from using 'police type' jargon filled phrases.

The jargon creeps in. The accuracy and honesty should remain, and on the whole, it does. It's really not worth lying to get someone a ticket for jumping a red light!

I suspect the officers were honestly mistaken, and if it went that far that fact would have come out in court. (I.e. the OP would have asked the question "how they knew his lights were red" and they would have answered "because ours were", showing they didn't know about the early green for cycles. It would however appear that perhaps their method of communication wasn't the best.
 
So, what if he is arrested and the suspected offence never happened....is that wrongful arrest?

As long as they had reasonable grounds to SUSPECT it did, no it is not. We don't have to be right, just have those reasonable grounds to suspect we are.

If there's an argument about whether the grounds are truly reasonable, it's for a civil court to decide that.
 

albion

Guru
Its a power thing. They are used to 'laying down the law' and cyclists jumping lights surely had already got up their wick..
I bet if you had continued to argue and they had self doubt you'd have been arrested for obstruction.

You did well, I'd certainly have been nicked when younger.
 

Cycling Dan

Cycle Crazy
Just to clarify it before it does up, you never HAVE to give your details to us unless we suspect an offence.
So in this case them saying you jumped the light, is this enough to clarify that you have to pass your details over?It may sound a stupid question however its the stupid questions in Law which tend to be the best. It makes everything crystal clear.
 

Cycling Dan

Cycle Crazy
From what I've heard some Police do depend on ignorance of the law or are ignorant themselves, I think one officer on here even got a talking to from a younger officer about a traffic offence which wasn't overly correct.
Unless you have a witness or camera to back you up, most people are going to believe two officers, aren't they?

Are Police officers taught a "script" to make an arrest go their way if it gets to court? You know, certain key phrases that will sound damning if read in court?
There are plenty of videos of this on YouTube and other social websites. The stuff that comes over from the states is crazy.
 

stowie

Legendary Member
Interestingly, I have a video of a police van jumping the same lights as I was waiting for the cycle green. If I remember, I might post a link!

I think the issue here might be twofold. Firstly, the police might not realise that there is a cycle green on the red and understand how the system works. Which would probably not put them in Einstein territory since the cycle lights are quite prominent. Or you said that you rode through the amber-green on the main lights and I believe the front set of lights goes green momentarily (second or so) before the lights behind the ASL. They were looking at the lights behind the ASL and saw you ride through some seconds before the green according to their lights. Which is explainable but somewhat officious - especially as one would imagine they would have a far better success rate in fining drivers for speeding on the flyover instead.

For a cyclist the roundabout is confusing since the green cycle light only means proceed 25m to the traffic red, but for motorists, and especially the police, the operation should look fairly simple.
 

Crankarm

Guru
Location
Nr Cambridge
Anyone who regularly uses the new "cyclist priority" lights at Bow roundabout, I just thought I'd let you know about an incident I had a couple of days ago.

I cycled through the cycle lane lights on green, into the ASZ then as I got to the front of the ASZ the lights changed so carried on over the stop line as it was changing from red/amber to green then onto the roundabout.

At this point a police car that had been waiting in the left hand car lane behind the ASZ sounded the horn, overtook me on the roundabout and pulled me over. A male & female officer got out and told me I'd just jumped 2 red lights. I was adamant that I hadn't, but was basically told to stop arguing or get given a ticket and at one point threatened with being handcuffed. So I stopped arguing, and was let off with a telling off as long as I admitted I jumped the lights and that I'd never do it again.

Not very interesting you may think, but this whole episode did wind me up a little so the next morning I decided to do some Sherlock Holmes style investigation and what I found out was mildly interesting.

During the whole incident the police car was stationary, waiting at the red light in the left hand lane just at the stop line behind the ASZ. From this point it's impossible to see the cycle lane lights, the only lights visible from a car in this position are all red, so it may look like a cyclist is bombing through red, but they aren't, because when the traffic lights for the cars are on red, the cycle lane lights are on green.

Then when I got to the front of the ASZ it's also impossible, from the police cars position, to see the amber and green lights of the early start lights. This is because they are steeply angled downwards to avoid confusing the drivers behind as these lights change a few seconds before the motor vehicles lights. So, again, all the drivers can see are red lights that a cyclist seemingly sets off under.

So there you go, innocent of all charges :whistle:. But some info worth noting for regular users if you ever get pulled over by police who think you've jumped a red.

I have written to the met police on this asking them to make sure their officers know how this junction works to avoid this happening again, but haven't received a response and aren't really expecting one.

I think in hindsight what I should have done was act confused and ask the police to walk back to the junction to show me how I was supposed to go through it. It certainly would've been worth it to see how they dealt with it. But when your being told by 2 police officers that you've broken the law, the tiniest seed of doubt suddenly grows and I just wanted to be let off.

Apologies if my descriptions are a bit confusing, I've got no idea how to post a picture of the junction and google street view still has the old layout.

The police are always abusing their powers and throwing their weight around and being obnoxious. They need retraining or sacking for harassing you going about your lawful business. I would make a complaint. Ignorant arrogant feckers. Their conduct was totally unacceptable. I hope you got their collars numbers or car reg.
 

Crankarm

Guru
Location
Nr Cambridge
That's fine until the police side of the story changes in court...

Yes and the police will bully and intimidate people who legitimately challenge them, make the law up as they go along, falsely arrest people, exaggerate and fabricate evidence, even stand up in court and give crooked evidence, just to cover their sorry ar$es and try to get you convicted. Be careful. They can be nasty bullies quite willing to pervert the course of justice.
 
So in this case them saying you jumped the light, is this enough to clarify that you have to pass your details over?It may sound a stupid question however its the stupid questions in Law which tend to be the best. It makes everything crystal clear.

Yes, if they honestly believed you had committed the offence based on them seeing their light being red as you crossed, then this is enough in this case.

As I said though, it should end up coming out straight at court as their evidence would be exactly that - "we believe he crossed on red because our light was showing red". The OP would just be able to point out their mistake and the light timings.

Crankarms posts are just anti police nonsense. The idea that two officers would be willing to lie in court over something as trivial as a red light jump, risking not just their careers, but their liberty and freedom (police can and would get jailed for the offence of perverting the course of justice) is laughable.

Their mistake is being so stubborn that it would appear the OP couldn't explain their mistake to them at the scene. I think he handled it well, and contacting the police afterwards to point out said mistake and asking for it to be pointed out is an excellent approach.
 

jarlrmai

Veteran
yup another reason the camera is fast becoming a requirement, even the police will often not recognise the law with regard to cyclists and your word versus their's is not a situation you want to be in.
 

gambatte

Middle of the pack...
Location
S Yorks
most people are going to believe two officers, aren't they?

5 years ago, I'd have agreed. Then we have all the phone hacking stuff, payments etc.
But primarily I live I South Yorkshire. The miners stories of what happened during the pit strike are finally being accepted. Hillsboroughs been all over the news.

People I know who 5 years ago would have backed plod to the hilt now turn round and say they wouldn't believe a word a copper said.

Then my own experience.. lets say, it's taken a MAJOR hit..... Sad.
 

Cycling Dan

Cycle Crazy
5 years ago, I'd have agreed. Then we have all the phone hacking stuff, payments etc.
But primarily I live I South Yorkshire. The miners stories of what happened during the pit strike are finally being accepted. Hillsboroughs been all over the news.

People I know who 5 years ago would have backed plod to the hilt now turn round and say they wouldn't believe a word a copper said.

Then my own experience.. lets say, it's taken a MAJOR hit..... Sad.
Although a ticket of this sort would be handled is in front of a magistrates court not a crown court where you would have a jury. So no police scandle would have any effect.
 

campbellab

Senior Member
Location
Swindon
At this point a police car that had been waiting in the left hand car lane behind the ASZ sounded the horn, overtook me on the roundabout and pulled me over. A male & female officer got out and told me I'd just jumped 2 red lights. I was adamant that I hadn't, but was basically told to stop arguing or get given a ticket and at one point threatened with being handcuffed. So I stopped arguing, and was let off with a telling off as long as I admitted I jumped the lights and that I'd never do it again.

So did you admit to it? Just because the police say they will let you off if you admit to it, I'm pretty sure they can turn around after you have confessed and do you for it.
 

SW19cam

Über Member
Location
London
Just another reason not to use the Bow Roadabout.... I've used it a hand full of times just for interest, and it's an exceptionally nasty experience. Consider using the flyover, just don't get caught speeding as you come off it...;)
 
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