Police

[Rumeigg]

I really wish someone would publish a concise guide to what powers the police have when they stop or detain you.
A friend of a friend was accused (falsley) of theft recently, hung around for the police to come so the situation could be quickly cleared up and was dealt with abysmally by the police.
Seeing videos on youtube of police and PCSO's abusing their position makes me furious and worried about the future.

Have a search on Google or the Home Office website and I'm sure your query will be answered about police powers.
On the flip side of the coin, a friend of a friend of mine had nothing but high praise for the police officer who came to tell her that her son had been killed in an accident and the compassion and help she was shown by that officer. Good cop / Bad cop syndrome , I suppose ?

 

[Rumeigg]

I got stopped by a copper near Victoria station this morning. I'd just got off the train and was cycling slowly across an empty path to take a 20 yard shortcut to avoid the clusterfcuk of a junction at the top of the station so I could get to Evans Cycles. (The road is one way)

He stepped in front of me and shouted 'Stop'. I stopped. He shouted 'Stop' again. I'd already stopped and told him so. I then got told he was issuing me with a £30 fine for riding on the pavement. My response was to laugh. He didnt smile. I then got told that it was an offence. I still thought he was joking so unclipped and tried to walk off. He grabbed my handlebars and told me I wasn't going anywhere.

I got really angry then, told him if he wanted to issue a ticket he'd have to follow me to my office, and that while he follows me there he really needed to consider if giving a £30 ticket to a polite and compliant person for a complete non event was what he joined the force for.

I walked off, he didnt follow.

I know I shouldnt have been on the pavement, I know it carries a fine, but what goes through these peoples heads. If he'd have said 'Jump off your bike mate' I'd have done so. Why the drama...

If you know you shouldn't have been riding on the pavement then don't do it, just walk and save getting grief from the boys in blue....Simples ??

 

[Scruffmonster]

If you know you shouldn't have been riding on the pavement then don't do it, just walk and save getting grief from the boys in blue....Simples ??

Yes, 'The law is the law'.... but I think you can still use a bit of common.

If from the dawn of time, all cyclists had ridden at 3mph on footpaths, there never would have been a law to prevent them being there. A bike can be a dangerous thing on a pavement, or no more harmful than a person. 20 yards of empty pavement... I dont want my police force enforcing that.

 

[Sara_H]

I got stopped by a copper near Victoria station this morning. I'd just got off the train and was cycling slowly across an empty path to take a 20 yard shortcut to avoid the clusterfcuk of a junction at the top of the station so I could get to Evans Cycles. (The road is one way)

He stepped in front of me and shouted 'Stop'. I stopped. He shouted 'Stop' again. I'd already stopped and told him so. I then got told he was issuing me with a £30 fine for riding on the pavement. My response was to laugh. He didnt smile. I then got told that it was an offence. I still thought he was joking so unclipped and tried to walk off. He grabbed my handlebars and told me I wasn't going anywhere.

I got really angry then, told him if he wanted to issue a ticket he'd have to follow me to my office, and that while he follows me there he really needed to consider if giving a £30 ticket to a polite and compliant person for a complete non event was what he joined the force for.

I walked off, he didnt follow.

I know I shouldnt have been on the pavement, I know it carries a fine, but what goes through these peoples heads. If he'd have said 'Jump off your bike mate' I'd have done so. Why the drama...

I read somewhere (probably a link I'd followed from here) that when on the spot fines for pavement cyclin were introduced, the home secretary issued guidance that stated that these powers were not to be used against careful, considerate cyclists avoided unsafe sections of road/junctions but were were intended for use against inconsiderate cyclists causing a nuisance/danger to pedestrians.

I meant to make a copy to keep in panniers for the exact reason that sometimes when I'm out with my 9 year old son there are some sections I just dont feel its safe to use the road.

 

[subaqua]

I read somewhere (probably a link I'd followed from here) that when on the spot fines for pavement cyclin were introduced, the home secretary issued guidance that stated that these powers were not to be used against careful, considerate cyclists avoided unsafe sections of road/junctions but were were intended for use against inconsiderate cyclists causing a nuisance/danger to pedestrians.

I meant to make a copy to keep in panniers for the exact reason that sometimes when I'm out with my 9 year old son there are some sections I just dont feel its safe to use the road.

Paul Boateng issued it i think http://www.bikeforall.net/content/cycling_and_the_law.php

 

[dellzeqq]

that's be the one - and it's good advice. But using the footpath (the clue is in the name) as a contraflow for a one-way street is crass. Get off and walk.

 

[CopperBrompton]

Only in Royal Parks. Elsewhere the speed limit only applies to motor vehicles.

I was the victim of police negligence in Richmond Park: I was doing 40mph in a 20 limit and the bastards weren't there to ticket me for it.

(No points, £30 fine for cyclists, which would be a bargain for the framed ticket on my bathroom wall.)

 

[Vikeonabike]

From an officers perspective. Most cops will use both common sense and powers of discretion where they can. Quite straight forward really, saves on paperwork and often a word of advice works better than a ticket.
However a couple of l factors come into play. (Not in any particular order of importance)
Firstly (thinking about minor offences like cycling on a pavement) There may be direction from management for a zero tolerance approach to certain offfences if it is deemed to be priority because of public interest! Which means you may be able to ride down a pavement one day unmolested by Officer Dibble, that night there has been a neighbourhood meeting where the great and the good of the community have decided that cycling on a pavement is the most horrendous of crimes in thier neighbourhood. The following day Officer Dibble gives you a ticket! Discretion not applied because of orders from above.
Secondly "Attitude test". Simple rule of engagement PASS IT! Laughing at, ignoring or verbally abusing an officer or PCSO who has asked you to do something "LAWFULL" genereally ends up in you losing! it may be a fine, it could end up with you sitting in a cell for a few hours before getting a fine or court appearance!
Attitude test is pretty important.. you don't know what the officer in front of you has had to deal with that day. They may just have had to inform someones mum their little girl has been killed in an RTC. They may have just been to a violent domestic and had to deal with the aftermath. Maybe they had just been vebally abused for the last hour by some drunken idiot and was trying not to take it personally!
Believe me, being polite will get you a lot further than being aggressive and obstructive!

So for the OP Yes the Law is the Law, yes you can still use a bit of common. But, as you stated you got really angry!.. The Copper who let you walk away was really a bit weak in that situation. You were lucky!

 

[Vikeonabike]

Police, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU give them something new to learn they will still act as grumpy gits the lot of them.

Corrected that for you

 

[totallyfixed]

how about signalling?

the police officer might have been officious, but, actually, eating a protein bar while on the move is pretty silly. You see it on audaxes all the time, but, then again, nobody has to pass an IQ test to do an audax

A sweeping statement which initially I was going to argue the toss about as I eat on the move frequently, however having observed many "Sportive" riders I tend to agree there may be a case to answer there. Seriously though it's nonsense,or is it also silly to take a drink from your bottle too.

 

[Vikeonabike]

I really wish someone would publish a concise guide to what powers the police have when they stop or detain you.
A friend of a friend was accused (falsley) of theft recently, hung around for the police to come so the situation could be quickly cleared up and was dealt with abysmally by the police.
Seeing videos on youtube of police and PCSO's abusing their position makes me furious and worried about the future.

Sarah. A PCSO may only detain you if and only if you refuse to give your details (or he suspects the details are incorrect) for a period of 30 minutes or until a Police Officer arrives! They can also issue tickets for certain offences (which confusing vary from force to force).
A police officer can stop and question you in any outside place ( or place the public has access too if you are suspected of committing an offence or the officer believes that you have witnessed a possible offence.
You will be asked to give your name and address to the officer. If you refuse or give a false name and address you are committing an offence.
All powers are explained in SOCAP (Serious Organised Crime And Police Act 2005) Section 110 , which replaes PACE (Police and Criminal Evidence Act (S24 & 25))


All I can say about the videos you see is that they are a drop in the ocean compared to the number of encounters with police officers where upon a member of the public is treated fairly, politely and with dignity (even in the face of intense provocation)

 

[musa]

Is it against the law to provide your name?

So when you if you refuse do you mean in relation to something or in general?

I have a right not to give my name and details so can you clear this up?

 

[Vikeonabike]

A sweeping statement which initially I was going to argue the toss about as I eat on the move frequently, however having observed many "Sportive" riders I tend to agree there may be a case to answer there. Seriously though it's nonsense,or is it also silly to take a drink from your bottle too.

It's all about common sense TF. Nothing wrong with eating or drinking whilst cycling. However. Common sense dictates if your, say in busy traffic and you have a hand off the bar to eat or drink, your ability to brake or react too an emergency situation is diminished. Worse case scenario is that you could badly hurt yourself, somebody else... or even your BIKE.....
In most cases.. Words of advice would usually suffice.. sometimes. like numpty boll*cks texting whilst riding in heavy traffic.. a report for summons would be appropriate. In all cases please refer to my post above on Attitude test

 

[machew]

A PCSO may only detain you if and only if you refuse to give your details (or he suspects the details are incorrect) for a period of 30 minutes or until a Police Officer arrives!)

A PCSO who has NOT been designated the power to detain can arrest someone in the following circumstances.
They witness an indictable offence occur and know who did it
They KNOW an indictable offence has occurred and have reasonable grounds to suspect who did it.
To prevent a breach of the peace.

A PCSO with the power to detain can also detain if
They suspect an indictable offence has occured AND the person they are with refuses/provides false details
A person they are with commits an offence that causes harassment, alarm, distress, loss or injury and refuses details
A person they are with is acting in an antisocial manner and refuses details
A person they are with is begging
A person they are with commits an offence for which that PCSO can issued a fixed penalty ticket and refuses details

 

[Sara_H]

All I can say about the videos you see is that they are a drop in the ocean compared to the number of encounters with police officers where upon a member of the public is treated fairly, politely and with dignity (even in the face of intense provocation)

I appreciate that, but I would say that, even in our own small (very law abiding family) family, we've had a couple of episodes of police officers abusing their powers, that coupled with stories you read about and see in the media make me very cynical about the police I'm afraid