Poor driving from someone who should have known better.

[matticus]

Blimey! Interesting thread

The good news is, it could still have many pages still to go!

 

[Milkfloat]

Not quite - the van has a big white triangle filling his lane.

However, the pair of dashed lines is the important bit, the presence of a triangular sign (physical or painted) is not mandatory, it just helps.

 

[Ming the Merciless]

Not quite - the van has a big white triangle filling his lane.

Ok we can both agree the OP and van driver have give way symbols ahead of the green crossing. The triangle is not essential for indicating give way.

 

[Origamist]

It looks like the planners of this route considered that the vast majority of cyclists would use the shared use path on the approach to the Third Avenue crossing and not the contraflow cycle lane if they were proceeding along the SCN Route 1. As Racing Roadkill has found this is a potential conflict point and it's not immediately obvious how to proceed from the contraflow cycle lane. Although the give way marking is pretty clear in both directions, albeit slightly different, I can't see how the cyclist would have priority over the van. It would be less clear cut if the cyclist was already on the crossing, but this was not the case here.

I think the best approach to this junction would be to move from the cycle lane just before the junction and use the shared use path, taking advantage of the give ways in both directions. It means you don't have to potentially give way or indicate right. I'd approach this crossing assertively but definitely look both ways...

To me this cycle route has the feel of a work in progress and the infrastructure needs more clarity and better design.

 

[kynikos]

Right. You should try riding a bike with deep section rims in a gusty side wind, with your arm out to indicate where you’re going, whilst trying to aim for a tiny gap, and braking. I’d love to see it.

Save up and spend a bit more money on a bike more suited for purpose?

 

[Milzy]

Just another helmet cam warrior giving us all a bad name. We're not entitled cyclists, we must all share the road sensibly and remain calm.

 

[winjim]

If you wanted priority over the Sainsbury's van then you should have already been on the cyclepath, as you were not, then you do not get that priority, you were as other have already advised effectively turning right at a crossroads where the vehicle going straight ahead has priority.

I think there's a bit of wanting to have it both ways. As cyclists we're privileged in that we can choose to use either the road or cycle paths, where provided, as we see fit. So the choice here is: if you want priority on that crossing join the cycle path earlier but be prepared to ride a bit more slowly and watch out for pedestrians, if you want to ride faster then stay on the road but be prepared to give way to other vehicles as appropriate.

I wonder if the junction could be fixed by getting rid of that one way cycle lane altogether and pushing all the cyclists on to the bike path. Then have the bike path branch, with one branch going over the crossing and one branch joining the cycle lane on the road. This might create some conflict between cyclists crossing each others paths though.

 

[Deleted member 26715]

I wonder if the junction could be fixed by getting rid of that one way cycle lane altogether and pushing all the cyclists on to the bike path. Then have the bike path branch, with one branch going over the crossing and one branch joining the cycle lane on the road. This might create some conflict between cyclists crossing each others paths though.

That does sound like a better solution, but possibly due to budget constraints it was decided to leave the island along with the bollards in place. However I still wouldn't blindly ride across the road without being prepared to stop for that vehicle that doesn't.

 

[monkers]

There is no such thing as right of way. It's an abstract concept that people use to justify killing other people with vehicles.

There is only priority, which is a commodity you give to others or allow to be given to you by others - you never just blindly take it for yourself, ever.

That's a really useful way to explain to novices and help keep them safe. However, the term 'right of way' is actually extensively used in law, eg the Highways Act 1980 ...

The Highways Act 1980 provides for the improvement, maintenance and creation of roads in England and Wales. The Act is divided into 14 parts and split into 345 sections.

The main part of the Highways Act 1980, relevant to cyclists, is Part 4 (Sections 36 to 61), which covers the maintenance of highways.

Before looking at Part 4 in more detail, Section 329(1) is also relevant to cyclists. This section states that a cycle track is a way, constituted or comprised in a highway, over which there is a public right of way on pedal cycles, with or without a right of way on foot and over which there is no other right of way. Whether the cycle track is part of a highway does not matter, the highway authority for the associated highway will be responsible for maintaining it.

 

[matticus]

Ok we can both agree the OP and van driver have give way symbols ahead of the green crossing. The triangle is not essential for indicating give way.

You're not wrong - we went through this upthread

I made the point because clarity of signage is important, and I think there is consensus here that's it's an ... ambiguous layout.

 

[Twilkes]

That's a really useful way to explain to novices and help keep them safe. However, the term 'right of way' is actually extensively used in law, eg the Highways Act 1980 ...

Right of way in that sense means right of access, it's nothing to do with priority over other road users, that's why misusing it is misleading, there is no 'right' of anything while negotiating other road users, it's about giving priority.

 

[figbat]

That's a really useful way to explain to novices and help keep them safe. However, the term 'right of way' is actually extensively used in law, eg the Highways Act 1980 ...

Context is important. In the legislation the term "right of way" is used to identify a legal right to use a 'way' (path/track/whatever). It isn't used in the context of priority over other users. So yes, there is such thing as "right of way", but not in the way most people use it.

 

[matticus]

I think there's a bit of wanting to have it both ways. As cyclists we're privileged in that we can choose to use either the road or cycle paths, where provided, as we see fit. So the choice here is: if you want priority on that crossing join the cycle path earlier but be prepared to ride a bit more slowly and watch out for pedestrians, if you want to ride faster then stay on the road but be prepared to give way to other vehicles as appropriate.

Just as motorists can choose to drive on their own (expensive) dedicated motorways; or drive on handy local roads where they have to share with soft squishy people.

 

[monkers]

Right of way in that sense means right of access, it's nothing to do with priority over other road users, that's why misusing it is misleading, there is no 'right' of anything while negotiating other road users, it's about giving priority.

Context is important. In the legislation the term "right of way" is used to identify a legal right to use a 'way' (path/track/whatever). It isn't used in the context of priority over other users. So yes, there is such thing as "right of way", but not in the way most people use it.

Then we agree. There is such a thing as 'right of way'. I can see the need to explain the concept of priorities to a novice, but it really shouldn't be necessary to explain this to someone with a driving licence. A novice cyclist will survive on the roads without a knowledge of 'right of way', but a good sense of priorities is obviously essential. I accept that I could have expressed my thoughts more clearly before.

Sorry @Drago, I was nitpicking unnecessarily - I am the original uber pedant

 

[monkers]

Another type of line marking is the so-called 'elephants' footprints'. I wonder if that junction might be more clearly marked if the edges of the green zone was marked with them. A low cost solution I would have thought. What do others here think?