Power Meters

[amaferanga]

Power2max looks like it is around 1100 euros and the first generation had a few issues with changes in temp.

You can't buy a first generation one now (and even if you bought a used one you could send it off to get the update). I bought mine in September 2012 and it had the temperature compensation stuff so this is simply not an issue with P2M any more. Also, you could get a SRAM S900 version for about £750 and then source a crank for about £50 so that's more like £550 saving on Vector.

I'm beginning to bore myself here banging on about the Vector, but I'm just not getting why folk are so excited about it. If it was £600 then I'd agree, but it's up there with the more expensive power meters. I'm sure it is or will be after the bugs get ironed out a good power meter, but it's neither better value, more convenient (6mins to swap over accordning to dcrainmaker and requiring a torque wrench and a special tool - my P2M takes <2min and I only need an 8mm hex bit) nor better featured than other power meters that are available. If you like it then buy it, but its just another power meter.

 

[Pedrosanchezo]

@Zofo and @Pedrosanchezo

Sorry, work got in the way

Here is a superficial article in case it's just a passing interest.

And here is a long winded internet fight between Dr A Coggan and the inventor of Power Cranks, pertinently paused at the point where Dr Coggan highlights the state of science on pedalling efficiency. Spend as long as you like on this one, but it does go on.

I can't see this being resolved as it appears to be opinion based. A simple google will bring up many articles on pedalling efficiency. There are many opinions but most point toward pedalling efficiency improving performance over a long enough time.

This from your first link:

"If research shows that smooth pedaling is overrated, why do most pro cyclists have a silky stroke? Remember that the studies usually deal with short-duration power output where pushing down as hard as possible, with the resulting ragged pedaling action, is more effective. However, this masher style is fatiguing over several hours. As a result, good riders automatically smooth their pedaling to increase comfort and efficiency over the long haul. Elite riders can do both -- produce maximum power for short periods as well as pedal elegantly for hours".

Possibly a combination of both would be most effective.

It might not be for everyone and there may be some who are actually faster and more efficient mashing, i though am not one of them. I have tried both and have seen significant improvements over longer rides. That's all the evidence i need but that doesn't mean it will suit everyone. Trial and error is far better than the opinion of others.

I stand by pedal efficiency being key to EVERY rider. I don't presume though that efficiency for every rider will be achieved with smooth circular pedalling. I do think it possible though that, with post ride analysis, one could get closer to finding out their most efficient pedalling style. The Vectors would be one such way as to look closer at this - if that's your thing.

 

[Dusty Bin]

I can't see this being resolved as it appears to be opinion based.

Evidence is all that matters - and there isn't any.

 

[Pedrosanchezo]

Evidence is all that matters - and there isn't any.

Try applying that theory to everything you do in life and see how you get on.

Opinion is all that matters as it's all you have.

 

[VamP]

I can't see this being resolved as it appears to be opinion based. A simple google will bring up many articles on pedalling efficiency. There are many opinions but most point toward pedalling efficiency improving performance over a long enough time.

This from your first link:

"If research shows that smooth pedaling is overrated, why do most pro cyclists have a silky stroke? Remember that the studies usually deal with short-duration power output where pushing down as hard as possible, with the resulting ragged pedaling action, is more effective. However, this masher style is fatiguing over several hours. As a result, good riders automatically smooth their pedaling to increase comfort and efficiency over the long haul. Elite riders can do both -- produce maximum power for short periods as well as pedal elegantly for hours".

Possibly a combination of both would be most effective.

It might not be for everyone and there may be some who are actually faster and more efficient mashing, i though am not one of them. I have tried both and have seen significant improvements over longer rides. That's all the evidence i need but that doesn't mean it will suit everyone. Trial and error is far better than the opinion of others.

I stand by pedal efficiency being key to EVERY rider. I don't presume though that efficiency for every rider will be achieved with smooth circular pedalling. I do think it possible though that, with post ride analysis, one could get closer to finding out their most efficient pedalling style. The Vectors would be one such way as to look closer at this - if that's your thing.

I can read you know... you might have missed the bit later on where he makes references to specific studies showing that there is no magic trick to learning to pedal.

Look I don't care either way, get Vectors if that is going to make you happy. I have provided you with a list of published scientific papers on the matter, go to the first principles, educate yourself, and if you still think spending hours perfecting your pedalling style will make any difference, then knock yourself out

I will be investing my time differently.

 

[Dusty Bin]

Try applying that theory to everything you do in life and see how you get on.

Opinion is all that matters as it's all you have.

You mean it's all you have. What I have is a complete absence of proof, or evidence..

 

[Pedrosanchezo]

I can read you know... you might have missed the bit later on where he makes references to specific studies showing that there is no magic trick to learning to pedal.

Look I don't care either way, get Vectors if that is going to make you happy. I have provided you with a list of published scientific papers on the matter, go to the first principles, educate yourself, and if you still think spending hours perfecting your pedalling style will make any difference, then knock yourself out

I will be investing my time differently.

I've never said any different. I am fairly sure you have your best interests looked after. Those on here who think Vectors are in their best interests, for whatever reasons, should be able to do so too. Those who have praised them have had others dispute their worth. It is all down to opinion. I have no doubt you have some kit that others would think of little or no use to them. Might be of extreme importance to you though.

Vectors would make me happy. SRM on every bike would make me happy too.

 

[Pedrosanchezo]

You mean it's all you have. What I have is a complete absence of proof, or evidence..

Nop i mean it's all anybody has. Perception is the key.

 

[Dusty Bin]

Nop i mean it's all anybody has. Perception is the key.

No, sorry. I don't mean to labour this, but evidence is key. Perception is changed through a convincing argument. And that usually requires evidence and/or proof.

 

[VamP]

I've never said any different. I am fairly sure you have your best interests looked after. Those on here who think Vectors are in their best interests, for whatever reasons, should be able to do so too. Those who have praised them have had others dispute their worth. It is all down to opinion. I have no doubt you have some kit that others would think of little or no use to them. Might be of extreme importance to you though.

Vectors would make me happy. SRM on every bike would make me happy too.

You appear to be just trolling, as you have put forth nothing but hyperbole, so I shall withdraw from this.

 

[Pedrosanchezo]

Jeez, to have an opinion is trolling if not backed by evidence. What evidence would one suggest anyway? Google? Other peoples experience and/or research? Okay............

http://d3multisport.com/cycling/pedaling-efficiency-vectors-and-motion/

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/cyc...chnique-make-you-a-more-efficient-rider-42241

http://www.topbike.com.au/pdfs/colson-bicyc-austjuly_aug2002.pdf



Or here is one which is on a forum and based mostly of opinion and experience. Lots of for and against.

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=21152


@Dusty Bin, we still have to perceive evidence before we make our argument with this evidence. How it is then perceived depends on the next individual and so on and so forth. ALL evidence can be disputed.

I agree though. This is going nowhere, i merely thought i'd show there is plenty of reading out there on pedalling technique and efficiency. Note that i didn't just link to those that are "pro efficiency".

 

[amaferanga]

Any real evidence as in peer reviewed journal articles?

 

[Dusty Bin]

@Dusty Bin, we still have to perceive evidence before we make our argument with this evidence. How it is then perceived depends on the next individual and so on and so forth. ALL evidence can be disputed.

Sure, we can 'perceive' the evidence (and dispute it) if or when we see it. But all you have there is opinion. Until then, we can safely say there is no evidence to suggest that pedalling style makes one iota of difference to power output, or how fast/how long we can ride.

 

[Pedrosanchezo]

Sure, we can 'perceive' the evidence (and dispute it) if or when we see it. But all you have there is opinion. Until then, we can safely say there is no evidence to suggest that pedalling style makes one iota of difference to power output, or how fast/how long we can ride.

Sure there is no evidence in the form you require. It might just be luck that the majority of the pro peloton have such great pedalling technique. It couldn't have been trained into them by those who know better than you or i. I actually concede it could be a simple matter of the miles put in by each rider.

For the record, i agree there is no evidence that states 100% that pedalling one way is more efficient than another.

 

[Dusty Bin]

Sure there is no evidence in the form you require. It might just be luck that the majority of the pro peloton have such great pedalling technique. It couldn't have been trained into them by those who know better than you or i. I actually concede it could be a simple matter of the miles put in by each rider.

What is this 'great pedalling technique in the pro peloton' of which you speak? Can you describe it, or provide any links?