rogerzilla
Legendary Member
The "not seeing the front wheel" was a frequent criticism of early Moultons, where a front rack was used. Same principle - get the frame to carry the weight, not the fork.
Project M6L to M6R on a budget
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@berlinonaut Factories producing bags for sale on Aliexpress can very well be the same factories producing bags for Brompton. Or does Brompton produce bags themselves in London including fabrics? How can you be absolutely sure it's not the same factory or not same materials? How can you be absolutely sure Chinese bag from Aliexpress has lower quality than Brompton?
We have an artificial leather factory in my area which produces leather for Louis Vuitton. Same leather quality they produce to other brands and no name brands in Turkey producing their own bags
Beside few Brompton bags I also have Wotancraft bag which is in my opinion top quality product. Chinese brand, produced in China. I have awsome rear rack bag from Vincita which I also find to be top quality product. Chinese brand made in China. Bottle handlebar bag I've ordered from Aliexpress also looks to be high quality product, straps and stitching is of good quality and I'm very happy with it.
I don't have to do bags comparison lab tests to have my opinion on things. My opinion and recommendations are based on both my experience and user reviews and I don't really care about old stories and sayings.
While there is nothing wrong with brand loyalty I just don't have it. I will not be buying Brompton branded gloves or rain jacket paying premium just because they're branded Brompton. There are plenty of high quality alternatives where you don't pay premium for logo.
We have an artificial leather factory in my area which produces leather for Louis Vuitton. Same leather quality they produce to other brands and no name brands in Turkey producing their own bags
Beside few Brompton bags I also have Wotancraft bag which is in my opinion top quality product. Chinese brand, produced in China. I have awsome rear rack bag from Vincita which I also find to be top quality product. Chinese brand made in China. Bottle handlebar bag I've ordered from Aliexpress also looks to be high quality product, straps and stitching is of good quality and I'm very happy with it.
I don't have to do bags comparison lab tests to have my opinion on things. My opinion and recommendations are based on both my experience and user reviews and I don't really care about old stories and sayings.
While there is nothing wrong with brand loyalty I just don't have it. I will not be buying Brompton branded gloves or rain jacket paying premium just because they're branded Brompton. There are plenty of high quality alternatives where you don't pay premium for logo.
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berlinonaut
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- Berlin Germany
I cannot be sure. But this is not at all the point. Because you cannot be sure that the products are of the same quality or from the same makers either. There is a possibility but one can not even give a probability. So basically we do have
a) bags from Brompton with a decade long track record, a design history, a brand that has something to loose in terms of reputation and stands in for warranty claims
b) bags from an unknown maker sold by unknown people in a far away country with an unknown track record, an unknown experience level, an unknown attitude and possibly not much to loose in terms of reputation. Shops on Aliexpress come and go as do brands.
a) costs a little more, b) costs a little less. Even if you don't give a damn on things like morale it is clear that a) is a safer choice and b) is a bet.
Brompton are a bike company, they do not have a track record in gloves or rainwear. Those are branding and marketing products whereas bikes and bags are their core business. There is some mixup when it comes to partnerships - bags like the game bag are in my eyes not only not worth the price but also worse than the "ordinary" bags in terms of quality and endurance.
Everyone has the free choice. But when you are short on money you better make smart choices. Only looking at the price is not smart and claiming things that you don't know while ignoring the risks and the unknowns is not smart either.
I never said bags are of same quality. I said bags are of decent quality for less.
berlinonaut
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So back to square one. On which basis do you do your claims?
Vincita is from Thailand and they are in the business for around 10 years and well known and well respected. They do have absolutely nothing in common with a Chinese pop-up-brand on Aliexpress. So you do have one single bag from a brand "Wotancraft" where you do have limited experience with in terms of time and still extrapolate from a single item to all bags on Aliexpress and/or made in China. A bit of a tough claim if you ask me...
Define "quality" for bicycle bag.
Square one? You're claiming that what I didn't say. Don't put words in my mouth.
The way I see it, I had to buy hundreds of bags of different brands, all bags of all brands on Aliexpress and the whole China, all Brompton bags, do proper comparison, run lab tests, use them in different areas of the world with different temperatures and humidity levels for 10 years, subject them to friction, overload, water resistant tests, heavy load tests (all from CE certified labs) , and only then according to your high standards, have the right to say that Aliexpress has decent quality bags for less.
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12boy
Guru
- Location
- Casper WY USA
I make my own. Fugly and crap quality but fun to make and they work ok.
I know what you mean,
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rF-hq_CHNH0
I prolly should called house of Versace and ordered custom brompton bag!
On serious note I think Brompton is not reaching many customers by not selling JUST ez wheels (and perhaps screw fittings ) by themselves as a pair or 4 wheels. It is after all a consumable. In case of someone constantly using the rack, or even bike without a rack, but just on two upgraded wheels, they might wear out. £26 for a set WITH A SEAT POST BUNG is a bit steep price. Not everyone needs seat post bung. Also rack for just touring with no wheels is just fine. The guy who did many thousands of miles while travelling on a brompton has a rack with old style wheels.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfQe4f0jbZs
The wheels look in great shape. I don't think he rolled brompton on them that much.
As far as front Brompton bags... I think the good part is added stability. The bad part is steep price and with some big bags it is hard to see front wheel, or more importantly what lies just in front of the wheel on a ground. For me personally I just don't see the need for a front bag. For regular riding I use biking backpack. I care more about bike weight, and ease of fold. But in case I will take a tour on a Brompton, rack would be nice- I think rack would take more than 10kg load safely (meaning probably it is a bit safer to overload a little bit a rack than front carrier). When touring I would use backpack that is bigger and a little heavier than normal. In case brompton is folded it is so much easier to handle things- just one backpack on shoulders and in one hand brompton.
The rack did not arrive yet, so no comment on what is in a package. But I assume just a rack with stays and nothing else.
You are correct, I just wrote my thoughts on a problem. Also most cheap things are awesome these days. Cheapest laptop in a store for example. I literally bough the cheapest and it is already in a 3'd year of use. It is light, portable, works great for my needs. I have to say that it is from reputable brand and I will definitely will be a customer of that brand. But some people are different, they like shiny fruit logo and spend 10x times+ more than I do while they never use full power or full options that better laptop offers. Also you can see here https://www.youtube.com/user/rossmanngroup the thoughts from a technician who deals with the internals of shiny fruit logo on daily basis.
Everyone is different. Also the OP had meaning of getting information what do I need to mount the rack on a bike. It seems no one knows. But we found a manual!!!
M5x12 screw, 2 M5 washers, M5 Nyloc nut (for mudguard)
2 M5x16 screws (A2-70 stainless DIN933) 4 M5 washers 2 M5 Nyloc nuts (for rack mounting to the frame)
berlinonaut
Veteran
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- Berlin Germany
In all those years I've been playing around with Bromptons I've never ever stumbled upon someone who wore out the carrier wheels.
You typically don't roll the Brompton far, so the distance covered on the tiny wheels is very limited. If the distance is more than let's say 100m in most cases you'd simply unfold the bike instead.
The guy in the video does btw. NOT use the "old style" wheels. What he is using are the standard wheels for the rear carrier in their current version that was introduced along with the newer style carrier in 2016. The old standard wheels are tiny hard plastic thingys on the frame and tiny rubber wheels on the carrier. Those lacked ground clearance and did not roll too well either. So in the late nineties/early 2000s Juliane Neuss mounted wheels from Dutch summer scating training shoes for ice-scating onto the Brompton, the German Brompton importer took them into his portfolio and showed them to Brompton and a couple of years after that Brompton created the Eazy Wheels based on that as a product of their own - they are basically a derivate from Julianes' findings. With those wheels the Brompton rolls way better than with the old standard wheels and ground clearance is better, too. In advantage of wheels from skateboards or inlineskaters that been used by a bunch of people before that to address the issue they are slimmer, so a heel strike when riding is less probable.
However, there are also downsides: First, with the rise in ground clearance the short standard seat post would no longer hit the ground, so the Brompton lost it's parking brake ability. That's why the seatpost bung was invented - to give a Brompton with Eazy Wheels the parking brake back. It was at that time and for the ongoing years a massive piece of rubber (and only needed and delivered along with the Eazy Wheels).
Second, the old standard wheels had a safety feature built in: When the folded Brompton was dropped harshly onto the wheels the wheels would sacrifice themselves and break in favor to avoid the little ears on the rear frame where they are bolted on to break or bend. This feature was absent in Eazy Wheels als well as in skater- or inliner-wheels. Those had also the disadvantage of a massive weight and a nonexistent damping, being able to destroy the ears longterm just by that (plus the heelstrike problem was annoying). The Eazy Wheels did not suffer from that problem but - slim as they are - the sometimes get stuck in uneven surfaces like cobbled areas.
So before ~2003 there were no Eazy Wheels but when they hit the market they were a massive improvement - that's why everyone recommends them. But time has moved on:
In 2016 Brompton therefore introduced new standard wheels: Massively bigger than the former standard wheels, slightly smaller (but a tad wider) than the Eazy Wheels. A wider rolling area, so better rolling and less getting caught. Plus they are made from more or less a mixture of rubber and plastic, so the safety belt function is back. This also made the former bung in it's former size unnecessary and it was now replaced with a light and small piece of plastic (which probably was also much cheaper to produce). A lot of problems solved by an incremental improvement and the assumption was that the Eazy Wheels would vanish from the portfolio or stay only for retrofitting on older bikes (as with the new version of the rear carrier also the bolt sizes for the wheels had changed). Due to a lot of old-school Brompton riders who did and do not catch up on recent developments but instead sing old songs constantly the standard claim "go for Eazy wheels as they are better" is still a prominent one (though there is no real foundation for it any more). On a sidenote: Interestingly enough (on a very special layer
) the group of grumpy old men that constantly toot out old outdated messages regarding many things Brompton in ignorance of any developments that happened during the last ~15 years since they bought a Brompton is in wider parts identical with those that claim that Brompton had not developed the bike further in any way since then. 
It is admittedly a matter of taste which wheels you like better, but counted all aspects in the new standard wheels seem the more clever package for most people (plus you don't have to pay extra as they are standard anyway).
What most people are not aware of as well is that the new standard wheels do come in different sizes - the ones for the racked version are slightly bigger than those for the reckless
version. And that's why the wheels for the rack version are sold as a pack of four, not just the two you would need additionally. If I remember correctly in former times the Eazy Wheels were also available as a single wheel in case you would need just one wheel replaced - this has vanished as obviously the overhead for having that spare part was too big and there was no need anyway. Some goes for the current standard wheels, as you still can see i.e. at brilliant bikes.Also, the amount of brain that went into the new standard wheels to achieve their abilities is typically underrated. I.e. with the very first series the materials were not perfectly adjusted regarding the point when they would intentionally break and they broke too early. This was quickly adjusted.
So a lot of things and aspects to have in mind when thinking about the "perfect roller wheel". Brompton clearly have done their homework, but a lot of users to not recognize that - they simply think: "bigger wheels roll better" and go for whatever offering, from inliner wheels to Asian Aluminium bling wheels w/o being aware what they buy and the possible consequences. With many people "bling" seems to be more important than cleverness anyway...
The guy in the video has retrofitted to his bike the rack in the version post 2016 (the bike is older than that) and is using it with the according standard wheels that came with it. You on the other hand want to save on money and bought a rack w/o wheels (which is intended as a spare part, not as a retrofit upgrade option). Which as a consequence rises the need that you have to think about bolts, mounting and wheels as well as the danger that you come to weird and wrong conclusions due to a lack of knowledge. Buying the retrofit package instead of the spare part avoids that but obviously costs a little more as more parts are in the package.
BTW: More or less everything that the guy in the video tells has been common knowledge for many years. He's not the first to travel with the Brompton and not even the first to do youtube-videos about that topic. I.e. the backpack solution became famous when Laura and Russ of pathlesspedaled discovered the Brompton back in 2011 and created youtube videos about their touring experiences and findings on the Brompton. Though they did not invent the "huge backpack on the rack" solution they made it famous. And probably most people that today toot out on youtube on how clever they tour with the Brompton got a lot of what they promote for their own fame from Russ and Laura or other sources that have silently invented those solutions and used them for years and years... We live in a time were a lot of people do self-promotion based on very little knowledge and own experiences and a lot of other people believe and hype these people.
Again you are drawing some not so perfect conclusion in my eyes. For one the front bag avoids the backback which as a consequence avoids sweating. A massive relief if you ask me, especially when commuting. The effect of the front bag is notoriously underrated by Brompton newbies (I myself started out with a backback as well and was totally baffled once I finally invested the money for bag and carrier block). Secondly, taking the front bag on and off is way quicker than dealing with things on the rear rack. The T-bag that the guy in the video is using holds more or less 30l and it is enough for many travels, at least if you do not carry camping gear with you. Plus the room for a bottle in the back (that you can reach during the ride), the net around it as well as the strap on top are incredibly practical. Admittedly it is not the prettiest bag (the last version looked better but was a tad less useful), but practical use is unbeaten in my eyes.
Third regarding weight distribution the Bromton is heavily backloaded. With a front bag you do even this out and get a real good weight distribution. If instead you leave out the front luggage but put a heavy backback on the rear rack you end up with a even more backloaded bike which really doesn't help in terms of handling. There is no gain in terms of "just two pieces" - as said before there is no difference with a front bag - in opposite: It is even better.
So as a piece of advice: When touring with the Bromton always start with front luggage. Only when this is not enough start loading at the back additionally. Either via a saddlebag or on the rack. Be aware that use of the rack is dramatically less comfortable in terms of parking, folding/unfolding, loading/unloading the bike. Avoid heavy luggage on the rack only.
With the new rack you do have some M5 bolts replaced by M6 bolts.
You decided to go cheap, so you have to research and think sorrowfully and this way replace money with brain. Drawing quick conclusions from unsufficient knowledge but with massive beliefs or shortcut assumptions doesn't help here. It only leads to poor solutions and having to buy things twice, so in the end spending more money and collecting frustration than when going down the established route from the beginning.
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berlinonaut
Veteran
- Location
- Berlin Germany
If we think about that approach a bit more seriously it might teach us something:
I prolly should called house of Versace and ordered custom brompton bag!
1. Assumed money was not an issue and also assumed Versace were the best in class in making custom bags you could be sure that what you get from them would be perfect from a craftsmanship-perspective. Obviously both is not true, but let's just assume it. Anyway it would be very expensive, way more expensive than any standard bag. But let's ignore that for the moment.
2. To get the perfect result you would have to deliver perfect specifications. Either technically (in the sense of a plan) or in terms of your needs.
3. We are already in trouble as due to a lack of personal experience you would have to rely on assumptions and one can be 100% sure that some of these assumptions would later in practice proof wrong. You would have overlooked some things and weighted the priority of a lot of aspects probably wrong. Not a personal fault but simply a natural effect from the lack of experience. So you would end up with a bag that is perfect from a craftsmanship-perspective but less perfect from a design and usage perspective.
4. You could slightly enhance things when you research extensively before ordering. Downside is: This could linder the effect but there's no way that could avoid it entirely. Plus research takes time and for most people time equals money or is even more worth than money because lifetime is a limited ressource.
5. Thus it makes sense to rely on the experience of others regarding the design, preferably those who do have experience. At least initially, for your first bag, as this lowers the risk of massive design flaws.
6. So it seems a good idea to buy a standard bag from a company that has loads of practical experience, in production as well as in design and in fact using the bag in daily practice.
7. You can (and have to) choose one of various suppliers: Brompton themselves, 3rd party with a long track record, generic bag companies that "also" do a bit of Brompton stuff, companies that do not have a track record and companies that just hop onto the Brompton wagon because there's money to earn.
8. Obviously each and every company will claim that their product is perfect (which obviously cannot be true). And as those products are all different some may fit your personal needs better than others.
9. Not too surprisingly Brompton themselves do have the longest experience and you can beliefe, that they do use their bikes and bags very intensively too and in huge amounts. Plus, they get feedback from their customers. So in terms of competence they are no doubt number one. If they do make the best use of that competence, too, is the question and admittedly their offerings are not the cheapest on the market. You pay for the experience and probably a bit of premium for the brand as well. Second in my opinion are Carradice and Radical Design - both have decades of experience with designing and making Brompton bags (as well as other bike bags) though obviously less than Brompton themselves. Same goes for own usage of the bags by the company and feedback from the users. Then comes the rest - regarding experience there's not so much difference between other 3rd party companies and many Asian offerings timewise.
10. In terms of reputation the well known brands do have the most to loose, the more if the bags are a core business case for them - again this rises trust in Brompton, Carradice and Radical Design, but also in Companies like Lumabag or Vincita, that do have a shorter track record. Asian no names that pop up a dozen per week and are far away do have nothing to loose - they are just in for the money (at least some of them) and tomorrow they will maybe sell electric scooters instead or simply change their brand name. The problem is that in most cases you cannot find out how reputable they really are and how important reputation and good quality is for them. So buying from them is a gamble.
11. User experience and feedback also differ: The well known brands who have been in the business for many years have the broadest userbase with loads of reports regarding their products, their quality and their attitude. The unknowns lack that - identical for brands of that segment from all over the world, so not specific for Asian No Names. Which again rises the risk of buying something from them.
So in the end it would be a really bad idea in your situation as a new Brompton user to get a custom Brompton bag made by Versace as it would probably turn out to be not fit for purpose. It is a way better idea to buy a standard bag and only if you've made your own experiences for a longer period of time and it turns out that your taste and needs differs so massively from other Brompton riders that no standard bag may fit your needs to go down a custom route. Which then will be overly expensive.
If you are really keen on saving money you may however make your own bag based on the experience of others. I.e. there's "Jane's Brompton bag" which has been available for ever for the homeuser which avoids to make each and every fault yourself. If it fits your needs a possible approach, too: http://www.toehead.plus.com/bagmain.htm
In all other cases you will have to buy a bag and if we create a schema from the above it may look like that:
Brand or segment: experience / craftsmanship / reputation / userbase and amount of reports / reachability / price (each 0-10 points, more is better)
Brompton: 10 / 9 / 9 / 10 / 10 / 5 -> Total: 53
Carradice, Radical, etc.: 8 / 9 / 10 / 7 / 10 / 6 -> Total: 50
Vincita, Lumabag, etc.: 5 / 8 / 8 / 4 / 10 / 4-8 -> Total: 39-43
well known European or American (generic) brands: 0-5 / 8 / 6-7 / 3 / 6 / 3 -> Total: 26-32
Gerneric Aliexpress offerings: 0-3 / 0-6 / 0-2 / 0-2 / 0 -3 / 8 -> Total: 8-24
So in the end in my opinion the Brompton, Carradice and Radical bags are the best bet despite the higher price. Especially when you are not yet very experienced. They simply offer the lowest risk overall plus - in opposite to other offerings - they do have a relevant resale value. If you only look at the price as the only criterum you'll surely end up with an Aliexpress offering but you take a far higher risk of a total loss or an inadequate bag that does in one way or another has design flaws and that you barely can resell as well.
So buying a Brompton branded bag has absolutely nothing to do with brand loyalty but with rational arguments. If I look at which of my bags I use the most these are the Carradice Stockport (market price is way lower than on the Carradice page), the Brompton T-bag (no longer avail. new) and the Brompton basket (older version than the actual one). The ones that I use the lowest are the Brompton C-Bag (no longer avail, turned out that the size barely never fits my needs, the more as I have many bags to choose from), the Brompton briefcase (only avail until 2009, predecessor of the S-/C-Bag) and the Radical Design Brompton Roll Top. Plus there are some that are used more or less frequently, so are neither at the top nor at the bottom. Obviously this depends mainly from personal preference, needs and taste and your mileage may massively vary. Plus it changes over time - i.e. before I had bought the stockport my most intensively used bag was the S-bag (no longer avail.). I do not own any of the bags from Brompton's current, relatively recently totally refreshed lineup but there seem to be a lot of interesting and good bags in it, often with improvements over older versions. Especially the Borough line of bags looks quite attractive to me - your mileage may vary. The Brompton bags deliver in my eyes good value for the money and the Carradice ones even better value for the money.
Where your personal sweetspot it between price and risk is a matter of taste. Simply focussing on the price alone on the other hand will pretty safely bring you to a suboptimal outcome.
PS: Buying from a brand with reputation but no Brompton experience may as well lead into trouble. I.e. Restrap recently released their first Brompton bag and at GBP 149 it is clearly in the higher price segment. Massive obvious design flaw: It will conflict with a light mounted on the fork crown. Inacceptably stupid and ignorant if you ask me. Plus I would bet that there are more issues due to the lack of experience and the focus on coolness and lifestyle.
Wellknown brand Freitag from Switzerland released a backpack for the front carrier block recently, the F748 Coltrane, for an eyewatering 360€. I did not try it but find the pricing obscene and the bag relatively ugly and not too well designed. It was even an official collaboration with Brompton. So a wellknown brand does not necessarily mean that you get a good product or good value for the money.
Wow!
Well with your encyclopedia like knowledge I am surprised that you did not post first about necessary mounting screws...Well no harm done. I paid for just a rack such a great price that even when I add all missing bits (except perhaps bung, but there is one on my bicycle anyway) I end up paying much lower price than £117. The deal is gone BTW, I think I got the last one. Also I end up with significant amount of washers, screws and nuts for future tinkering or replacement and better ((?)- bigger) original Brompton) eazy wheels. The price is calculated for all brand new items, from UK dealers. Sure, it might be less convenient and will take some time, but it is not like I am on a hurry anyway.
The rack arrived, as expected it is just a rack, but surprisingly it included printed mounting instructions too. So I guess I rushed a bit reaching forum. I did not mean to offend Brompton aficionados with my what some people might think smug money saving tip. It was well known fact, that 2 types of racks are available- as a kit and just barebones.
Rack is quite light, actually I expected it to be much heavier. Perhaps I might use it more often than just for touring.
Here is what you get as just a rack option. Sorry for a bit blurry pictures- the rack is still in plastic, will wait till I get at least rear mudguard. Also there is nothing wrong with label in front - covered with pieces of paper just in case they are unique for each rack and some obsessive compulsive people will have nothing else to do. Imagine the reaction when soon I will be swapping Brooks c17 that I really hate to Taiwanese brand saddle.
berlinonaut
Veteran
- Location
- Berlin Germany
Creativity is unlimited. Here pics of a mod I found in a small ad a couple of years ago. I'd call them "easier wheels".
On the front are btw. the old small plastic standard roller wheels.