Question on narrow point of law

[4F]

Dismount and carry the bike on your shoulder before remounting.

 

[Dan B]

Edit - just asked Woman's opinion as she's an ex Road Policing Team officer, and she says "all classes of road user" must obey traffic lights, so the offence is complete. She thinks its a 20p question though and had never heard of it actually happening.

In that case, what's a "road user" - pedestrians use them too, you know ...

(Of narrower interest but something I'd personally quite like to know the answer to, if there is an answer - are roller skaters "road users" On speed skates I can comfortably outpace a good number of recreational/utility cyclists and therefore tend to use the carriageway rather than the pavement, but tend to rely on my common law right to pass and repass for that rather than any of the statute law that's sprung up more recently)

 

[fossyant]

Dismount and carry the bike on your shoulder before remounting.

Cyclocross style - don't forget to run and hop back on in a jiffy.

 

[Drago]

The Road Traffic Act is compatible with your right to pass and repass. Greater minds than ours have wielded that one in court, like a big moral baseball bat of defence, and failed.

 

[GrumpyGregry]

I'm awaiting a response to my traffic sergeant and traffic inspector mates.... my money is on the standard response "the law isn't clear as it hardly ever happens and if it did we'd 'manage' it"

I guess the question arises as to what happens if it goes pete tong and whilst you are wheeling your bike across the body of the junction you get hit...

Let's consider the legalities
"5 minute" red phase
queue of traffic
you are stopped in primary 10 cars 50m back from stop line
you dismount
you drag your bike to the pavement
you walk your bike along the pavement to the junction
you cross the junction on the green man
you walk your bike 50m past the other side of the junction
you place bike in road
you remount
you ride off.

I can't see a single offence being committed. If the 50m becomes 5m or even 5cm what is the difference? Just because motorised road users can't transmute themselves into pedestrians on a whim doesn't mean those who can are bound by the same rules.

 

[Dan B]

The Road Traffic Act is compatible with your right to pass and repass. Greater minds than ours have wielded that one in court, like a big moral baseball bat of defence, and failed.

I'm not suggesting otherwise. But even reading it end to end it makes no mention of roller skaters (although s26 is probably relevant to some of my younger and more immortal friends) or anyone else who by virtue of their speed or maneouvring characteristics wishes to move in a vehicular-ish fashion but who is not in/astride anything that would conventionally be recognised as a vehicle.

 

[benb]

If you are walking, you are a pedestrian - whether you are pushing a bike or not. However, simply pushing the bike over the line and re-mounting would be illegal since you are still riding the bike across the junction. You have to walk the bike all the way across.

I don't think that's true - it's only crossing the stop line that's an offence, unless it's a box junction.

 

[CopperCyclist]

I'm awaiting a response to my traffic sergeant and traffic inspector mates.... my money is on the standard response "the law isn't clear as it hardly ever happens and if it did we'd 'manage' it"

I guess the question arises as to what happens if it goes pete tong and whilst you are wheeling your bike across the body of the junction you get hit...

Let's consider the legalities
"5 minute" red phase
queue of traffic
you are stopped in primary 10 cars 50m back from stop line
you dismount
you drag your bike to the pavement
you walk your bike along the pavement to the junction
you cross the junction on the green man
you walk your bike 50m past the other side of the junction
you place bike in road
you remount
you ride off.

I can't see a single offence being committed. If the 50m becomes 5m or even 5cm what is the difference? Just because motorised road users can't transmute themselves into pedestrians on a whim doesn't mean those who can are bound by the same rules.

No, on that scenario there isn't.

The scenario that's interesting is someone riding up to the stop line with the light on red, dismounting, pushing the bike over the stop line into the junction, watching for a gap in traffic then remounting and cycling through. I've seen a YouTube clip of someone doing this, on one of Gaz's video. thnk.

As Drago says, I bet it's never been actually tested at court.

 

[sabian92]

I saw a video on YouTube of some knob doing this - I can't see it being technically illegal although it irritates drivers (to be honest, it would probably irritate me as sod's law I'd be the bugger who ran him over!)

It's not technically a RLJ (and they aren't a vehicle, you are allowed to push a bike on a pavement just not ride on it because by pushing it you are a pedestrian).

Illegal it is not although I'm of the opinion that it should be simply for protecting those who don't expect it and run them over as they aren't looking for them (and why should they? They're on red anyway.).

 

[benb]

I saw a video on YouTube of some knob doing this - I can't see it being technically illegal although it irritates drivers (to be honest, it would probably irritate me as sod's law I'd be the bugger who ran him over!)

It's not technically a RLJ (and they aren't a vehicle, you are allowed to push a bike on a pavement just not ride on it because by pushing it you are a pedestrian).

Illegal it is not although I'm of the opinion that it should be simply for protecting those who don't expect it and run them over as they aren't looking for them (and why should they? They're on red anyway.).

Yeah, as I said it would only be for when the whole junction is at a standstill.

I don't really understand why it should irritate drivers though - not as if it's getting in their way at all is it?

 

[sabian92]

Yeah, as I said it would only be for when the whole junction is at a standstill.

I don't really understand why it should irritate drivers though - not as if it's getting in their way at all is it?

Well, I meant if the junction was flowing just the lights for the rider were on red. Imagine you at a crossroads - your lights are changing to green as the traffic crossing you turns to red. You accelerate and spot a cyclist scooting over the junction and have to brake sharply, potentially causing a crash because the car behind you doesn't expect it (and why would he? His lights are on green.).

I know in theory you're supposed to leave enough room to stop but in the real world, nobody ever does. The cyclist rides off none the wiser (or not caring) and you've got a smashed car, ruined no claims and a queue of cars with angry drivers. Cyclists generally don't have insurance (London being the exception to that rule generally, most people where I live don't even realise you can get it in the first place) and how would you prove it?

It'd piss me right off.

 

[benb]

Well, I meant if the junction was flowing just the lights for the rider were on red. Imagine you at a crossroads - your lights are changing to green as the traffic crossing you turns to red. You accelerate and spot a cyclist scooting over the junction and have to brake sharply, potentially causing a crash because the car behind you doesn't expect it (and why would he? His lights are on green.).

I know in theory you're supposed to leave enough room to stop but in the real world, nobody ever does. The cyclist rides off none the wiser (or not caring) and you've got a smashed car, ruined no claims and a queue of cars with angry drivers. Cyclists generally don't have insurance (London being the exception to that rule generally, most people where I live don't even realise you can get it in the first place) and how would you prove it?

It'd **** me right off.

That's not a situation where it would be acceptable, and it would annoy me too. I was talking about where the whole junction is jammed, which does happen.

 

[GrumpyGregry]

Yeah, as I said it would only be for when the whole junction is at a standstill.

I don't really understand why it should irritate drivers though - not as if it's getting in their way at all is it?

Even if the entire junction is jammed solid anything a cyclist does which a driver perceives as giving the cyclist an advantage over the drivers' sense of entitlement is GUARANTEED to irritate some of them.

Plebs must not outrun Equestrians. Charioteers have right of way at all times.

 

[benb]

Even if the entire junction is jammed solid anything a cyclist does which a driver perceives as giving the cyclist an advantage over the drivers' sense of entitlement is GUARANTEED to irritate some of them.

Plebs must not outrun Equestrians. Charioteers have right of way at all times.

Well, in that case I would offer that it's not my intention to irritate them - just a happy side effect.

 

[Cyclopathic]

In the old days where people mounted a bike in motion, some people had this idea that if you half dismounted and 'scooted' you became a pedestrian. So people would swing their right foot over the bike and to the ground, leaving their left foot on the pedal, when there was a pedestrian turn at the lights. Then as soon as they felt they were safe they would swing their right leg back onto the bike and start cranking. All accomplished without stopping moving.

I reckon the cycling proficiency killed that form of mounting a bike. You rarely see it nowadays.

It's practically the only way I mount my bike. And I do the scooty thing. I've had a couple of close calls though where my loose fitting trousers haven't quite cleared the saddle as I swing my leg over which must make me look a bit of a prat. I just make sure now that my trousers are good and pulled up.