R4 Woman's hour - Women cyclists killed by HGVs

[Crankarm]

Follow up comments today re yesterday's broadcast and title of this thread. Comment is after first aricle on Parkinson's Disease about 15 minutes in.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/womanshour/

Comment from a chap purporting to represent the Darlington Cycling Campaign attributing the fact that cyclists regularly have to wobble or suddenly change direction due to poor road surfaces, pot holes, etc. Other motor vehicles should be prepared for this . He advocates a much improved cycle lane infrastructure to separate cyclists from the road. He also claims he has been a car and lorry driver for many years.........hmmmmm.

Several other cyclist hating comments re not wearing hi-viz thus being practically invisible at night save for a single twinkling rear light .

And again cyclists riding on pavements - frightening rpedestrians and causing them to have to jump out of the way. Also comment that many cyclists jump red lights. Comment that many give the impression that the Highway Code does not apply to them. Stated that the HC applies to cyclists for pedestrian safety and cyclists for their own safety. Cyclists bring a lot of what they experience on themselves .

However Jenni Murray indicated there was a lot of strong feeling on this as many had contacted the programme. Presumably no comments though from everyday genuine cyclists. The BBC definitely have very poor researchers and woeful editors who have clearly not ever ridden a bicycle on any regular basis except on holiday in the Black Forest or at Centre Parks and who don't have any clue about presenting a balanced story or comments that reflect the key issues in a matter they are purporting to feature. No comment so far from experienced every day cyclists men or women in connection with the specific issue being discussed - HGVs killing female cyclists, cycling fatalities and road safety in general. They haven't even bothered to contact TfL, LCC, CTC, RoSPA, BCF, Road Haulage Association or looked at hospital admissions for RTAs involving cyclists. Only the input from Cynthia Barlow the mother of a dead female cyclist killed by an HGV. Shocking reporting. So maybe some proper cyclists or cycling organisations should contact the programme to put the record straight and stop this cycle hating propaganda.

 

[HJ]

I'd agree with this. Again it's about attitude, drivers will quite often swear and insist you 'get over' as will nippier cyclists behind but you have to stand your ground. I've never driven so asked a lot of driver friends for advice on staying visible before I got on the road. My dad also gave me advice from his motorcycling days. His advice on left turn/straight-ahead lanes was to 'think like a car'. Get in a position where people can't nip round and turn left in front of you, make sure you're clearly visible to all concerned and if people give you stick for being in the middle of the lane shrug it off.

Similar advice is given in Cyclecraft about moving into the primary position ahead of such hazards to make yourself more visible.

Just don't try telling drivers that they should read Cyclecraft or video yourself doing so, as someone on here has done (mentioning no names)....

 

[handsome joe]

Isn't cycling supposed to be fun? Do you have to study cycle craft or complete a course to get on a bike? I never cycle anywhere near a large vehicle but occasionally I’ve caught myself beside one. And I’ve wobbled around large pot holes in heavy traffic. I always make mistakes and I would call myself a fairly good cyclistist. Does that mean I am a liability? There are some cyclists that wobble or wear headphones etc and there are risks involved in doing this. There are also car drivers that use their mobiles, never signal adequately or drive over zebra crossings etc.....i could go on all day. I make allowances for these cyclists and motor vehicle drivers everyday and i they make allowances for me. A cyclists who decides (for whatever reason) to cycle inside a lorry is making a mistake. The lorry driver who doesn't adequately signal or see what’s around him and then turns? Well he's made a mistake. At the end of the day i will never know what happened each time there’s a fatality and who's at fault. I do know that there is a possibility that fatality could have been avoided. I hope i don't become a fatality through on of my mistakes.

I would love to take my kids out in one of those wheelbarrows on wheels thingies that go around Amsterdam. But i wouldn't and i don't see this ever happening. In regards to cycling this country is so user un-friendly. For someone starting out where would you go? You can't ride on the pavement. Do you set off onto a busy city road? What if you've never heard of road safety training or cycle craft? What if that lorry you're cycling next to hasn't seen you? What if? What if?

This country expects more people to take up cycling for environmental and health reasons. If i was new to cycling and kept reading about these deaths on our roads......would i get on a bike? I don't know. But i know this Government's policies on promoting cycling is a joke.

 

[summerdays]

Proximity sensors are £500 (according to RoadPeace) and these might also make a difference if deployed. However, they will not replace driver observation and hazard perception.

The delay in fitting class VI mirrors to HGVs borders on the negligent.

What exactly is the law on these new mirrors... because a building site has just opened up near where I cycle and although the cemex lorries have them - the tipper/skip lorries don't. The first junction after the building site where they turn left out of the side road has a ASL and a left feeder lane - and the lorries are turning left at this junction. (I'm not using the feeder lane cos I go on the right hand side as I'm normally turning right anyway and I can see when the lights are about to change).

I would like to visit the site manager and talk to him about it but would need to know exactly when these new mirrors should be adopted by. This route is well used by cyclists (including school kids but they are mostly cycling on the pavement).

 

[Origamist]

Under the current programme, most UK lorries will not have these mirrors until 2014.

The LCC has more info on its webiste.

Cemex have them fitted mainly due to the involvement of the Chair of RoadPeace.

 

[summerdays]

Thanks - I will still try having a word with the site manager to see if even if they don't have the mirror fitted maybe they can make the lorry drivers aware they have to look out for the cyclists. There are probably 5 - 10 lorry movements each direction per hour at a guess.

 

[Arch]

My suggestion is that cycling groups should proactively campaign to be on such programmes, when they are flagged up, rather then waiting for production to ring them up.

I emailed them, before the programme, having heard it trailed, to offer some advice - the main thing being not to ride down the inside, that being the issue some of us are actively thinking about at the moment, and the other things being to get adult training, or at least read Cyclecraft - positive positioning and defensive riding would help in all but the most woeful lack of attention cases. I've had no autoreply, so I don't know if my email went adrift, they certainly haven't referred to it.

I heard the comments today, and when the last woman opened her mouth, I just knew what she was going to say, and lo and behold yes, it was a rant about pavement cycling and rljing. Of course the whole point about these left hooks is that the victims were on the road, and almost certainly not rljing, but that doesn't matter, she had to have her little rant. So a) thanks to all those pavement cyclists and rljers for reducing the value of a cyclist's life to 'urban nuisance' and really there just is no point anymore. I'm emigrating as soon as I get the chance. 22 little miles of water away, there's a continent where cyclists aren't odd, and get the respect they deserve - IE as much as anyone else.

Actually, I've recovered a bit from that initial raging despair, but not much.

 

[mm101]

I emailed them, before the programme, having heard it trailed, to offer some advice - the main thing being not to ride down the inside, that being the issue some of us are actively thinking about at the moment, and the other things being to get adult training, or at least read Cyclecraft - positive positioning and defensive riding would help in all but the most woeful lack of attention cases. I've had no autoreply, so I don't know if my email went adrift, they certainly haven't referred to it.

I heard the comments today, and when the last woman opened her mouth, I just knew what she was going to say, and lo and behold yes, it was a rant about pavement cycling and rljing. Of course the whole point about these left hooks is that the victims were on the road, and almost certainly not rljing, but that doesn't matter, she had to have her little rant. So a) thanks to all those pavement cyclists and rljers for reducing the value of a cyclist's life to 'urban nuisance' and really there just is no point anymore. I'm emigrating as soon as I get the chance. 22 little miles of water away, there's a continent where cyclists aren't odd, and get the respect they deserve - IE as much as anyone else.

Actually, I've recovered a bit from that initial raging despair, but not much.

Firstly, I really don't blame you re the emigrating bit. Is bloody infuriating to listen to ill-informed people spout their insular and ignorant ramblings without doing the least bit of background research or at least try and look at it from a perspective other than their own.

What really hacks me off about people in this country is everyone is only interested in their own little sub-groups/ special interest groups and sod everyone else. The sub-group whittles away until it gets to the real driving force (pardon the pun) and that is their self.

I really do loath narrow mindedness and selfishness in all forms. When will people get the idea that if they help others, are considerate and conscientious then they are really helping themselves and moreover, others and society benefit too.

The attitude towards motoring really has to change. Motorists need to be educated with real radical, not piecemeal, efforts to stop the reliance on the car. Most drivers hate driving anyway as most cars are driven in a manner in which indicates driver cannot wait to get out of the damned thing.

I am a driver so am not anti-motorist, but the size of this country and it roads are not conducive to a motoring culture like they have in America. Cars are expensive, noisy, difficult to park with hideous looking, cluttered up, car-lined streets - pollution and congestion creating. What more incentive do we need to adopt a cycling culture like they have on the continent?

 

[Arch]

I got to thinking about the channel. 22 miles of water. If there was a bridge, you could ride over it in an hour and half, comfortably... What a thought... What makes us so different? Never before have so many mucked up what so few fought for and all that...

There's probably a PhD in it (like I need another to not get done) - when did we start to depart so badly from the ideas of the continent. Was it the industrial revolution? Is it just a tendency for socialism to work better over there? Is it because we never were invaded and had to rebuild? (although we were bombed enough...) Was it Maggie, or Tony, or Pitt the Younger who started the rot?

Sod this. I'm off home for a plate of pasta and a can of Radler (shandy). There, the Germans even invented a drink just for cyclists!

 

[Fnaar]

It's always important for cyclists to ask themselves what they can do to keep safe... I see some idiotic things on the roads in town... probably did them myself years ago till I became more aware...
In the meantime, any kind of public education (whether aimed at drivers or cyclists is a good idea.
This is a bit old now, but there may be one or two of you who haven't seen it...

View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ahg6qcgoay4

 

[Dan B]

There's probably a PhD in it (like I need another to not get done) - when did we start to depart so badly from the ideas of the continent. Was it the industrial revolution? Is it just a tendency for socialism to work better over there? Is it because we never were invaded and had to rebuild? (although we were bombed enough...) Was it Maggie, or Tony, or Pitt the Younger who started the rot?

We never had a revolution. Well, we did but we didn't make it stick.
I don't know whether it's that we departed from the ideas of the continent or more that they advanced from the feudal ideas we used to share with them, but that civilisation hasn't spread this far yet.

 

[andrew-the-tortoise]

Did see an HGV the other day with a big sign on the rear saying; "Cyclists Please Don't Under-take" [or something to that effect].

 

[handsome joe]

A cyclists who decides (for whatever reason) to cycle inside a lorry is making a mistake.

Actually they're not making mistakes just saving energy till they're dropped off. Or there's hundreds of lorries with kidnapped cyclists inside. I've obviously haven't decided which is which yet.

 

[purplepolly]

I just knew what she was going to say, and lo and behold yes, it was a rant about pavement cycling and rljing. Of course the whole point about these left hooks is that the victims were on the road, and almost certainly not rljing,

Was it last year that there was a report into these kind of deaths that was discussed in parliament? I think one of the conclusions was that more women were killed because we're more likely to obey the law and not rlj.
Men are more likely to rlj and so get out of the way of lorries coming up alongside them to turn left.

Me, I just wait further out in the lane if there's a large vehicle behind or it's a junction where a lot of cars turn left, although that does sometimes result in beeping or engine revving.

 

[simon_brooke]

I don't come up the inside of a lorry even when it ain't signalling unless I can clearly see my exit at the other end - much to the annoyance of cyclists behind me who are determined to head off, usually in an ungainly fashion, into the gap of death.

One of the women seriously injured in London recently was cycling along a straight bit of road when an HGV overtook her... or at least the cab did. It then left hooked her but unfortunately before the back wheels had passed her. She's alive but is apparently likely to lose her leg.

It's very easy to blame the victim, especially when the victim is dead and can't give their side of the story. We don't know that ANY of these women went up the left hand side of the HGV.