rear wheel, scraping noise every rotation

[silva]

Assume 10mm, not 10cm.
What make/model of rim? What was the rim's internal rim width? 3.2 bar (45psi) seems extraordinarily high for 62mm width tyres.

It really was 10 cm, 100 mm (latter not exact ofc).
That was the crack visible from the outside, close to the rims side. The inner wall of the double wall.
At the dealer, with tires and rim tape removed, another crack showed up in the outer wal, which went entirely along the rims diameter (so an uninterrupted crack - all spoke holes were separated.
The brand is Ryde and the model is Yura 22, 36 spokes. The "22" is the internal rim width.
The 62 mm tire (a Schwalbe Super-Moto-X) is specified as 2-4bar.
Both parts were default choices of the producer of the bike.
Upon explicitly asking yesterday, the 3 bar should be no problem for the rim, the 4 bar was described as "a bit high".
The bike is built/designed towards use as vacation bike. Lotsa luggage/weight. The rear rack is specified for 40 kg load, the front one for 15 kg. With alot weight, a higher pressure is needed, also for 62 mm tires. The bike was delivered with abit over 2 bar inflated tires, and even without luggage the rear tyre just deformed too much and cornering was like drifting around - I immediately rode back (was test ride) and asked for a higher pressure. 2.5 bar solved that drifting, but since my basic luggage weights 10 kg, and I regularly have several tens kg's on top of that, 3 bar was needed to not drift with that weight.

I already had noticed bike sometimes weirdly reacting when steering sideways, alike the tyre "lagged" abit. This must have been the rim walls wobbling, since the crack made them lose their connection so sideways much more prone to torsion.

 

[Ming the Merciless]

Just sounds like you wore out the rim. Amazed you did not notice a 10cm crack for so long. You must not look at your wheels for a long time.

 

[silva]

Just sounds like you wore out the rim. Amazed you did not notice a 10cm crack for so long. You must not look at your wheels for a long time.

I know a rims sidewall wears in a case of a rim brake, but what would wear an inner wall of a rim?
To me, it just looks like a rim not able to withstand a force, and cracking.
Metal can crack without the crack actually opening. I inspect the tyres and wheel everyday, upon arrival at work. Very likely, the crack opened only under load, and with a bike upside down on the ground, there isn't really a load, don't you think?

 

[Ming the Merciless]

I know a rims sidewall wears in a case of a rim brake, but what would wear an inner wall of a rim?
To me, it just looks like a rim not able to withstand a force, and cracking.
Metal can crack without the crack actually opening. I inspect the tyres and wheel everyday, upon arrival at work. Very likely, the crack opened only under load, and with a bike upside down on the ground, there isn't really a load, don't you think?

Rim wears from brake and gets thin enough it cracks open under the forces. It is well known enough.

 

[silva]

Rim wears from brake and gets thin enough it cracks open under the forces. It is well known enough.

This is what I reported today:

... Finally my eye catched it: a 10 cm crack in the rim, between spoke holes and edge.
...

Do your brake pads touch rim, named "inner wall", between spoke holes and edge?
Mine touch the edge/side wall, not the inner wall.
Most brake pads touch that place of the rim.
In fact, all.
It's not wear that cracked the rim, it's the force exerted by the tire pressure, not anymore partly absorbed by the outer wall, since that was cracked the entire circumference.

 

[Ming the Merciless]

This is what I reported today:

Do your brake pads touch rim, named "inner wall", between spoke holes and edge?
Mine touch the edge/side wall, not the inner wall.
Most brake pads touch that place of the rim.
In fact, all.
It's not wear that cracked the rim, it's the force exerted by the tire pressure, not anymore partly absorbed by the outer wall, since that was cracked the entire circumference.

Picture please

 

[Ajax Bay]

62mm tyre on a 22mm rim width (inside) is more than the generally accepted 2:1 ratio (https://sheldonbrown.com/tire-sizing.html and scroll 4/5ths down):
"If you use a very wide tire on a narrow rim, you risk sidewall or rim failure. This combination causes very sloppy handling at low speeds. Unfortunately, current mountain-bike fashion pushes the edge of this. In the interest of weight saving, most current mountain bikes have excessively narrow rims. Such narrow rims work very poorly with wide tires, unless the tires are overinflated...but that defeats the purpose of wide tires, and puts undue stress on the rim sidewalls. "
The bending force from the tyre on the rim 'inner wall' is enhanced by your use of 45psi pressure: perhaps this contributed to the generation of this crack. Would the forces acting 'outwards' on the rim edge be much different when the bike is static and unloaded? I'd say not so the crack would not 'close up' when the wheel was unloaded. Whatever, in your regular, frequent inspections the (100mm) crack was not apparent.

 

[silva]

62mm tyre on a 22mm rim width (inside) is more than the generally accepted 2:1 ratio (https://sheldonbrown.com/tire-sizing.html and scroll 4/5ths down):
"If you use a very wide tire on a narrow rim, you risk sidewall or rim failure. This combination causes very sloppy handling at low speeds. Unfortunately, current mountain-bike fashion pushes the edge of this. In the interest of weight saving, most current mountain bikes have excessively narrow rims. Such narrow rims work very poorly with wide tires, unless the tires are overinflated...but that defeats the purpose of wide tires, and puts undue stress on the rim sidewalls. "
The bending force from the tyre on the rim 'inner wall' is enhanced by your use of 45psi pressure: perhaps this contributed to the generation of this crack. Would the forces acting 'outwards' on the rim edge be much different when the bike is static and unloaded? I'd say not so the crack would not 'close up' when the wheel was unloaded. Whatever, in your regular, frequent inspections the (100mm) crack was not apparent.

I had doubts myself with the rim versus tyre width.
This is a mail I've sent on 9 juli 2017, in the late production phase of my bike, to Ryde, the producer of the rim that the producer of the bike chosed:

Geachte,

Inzake deze velg, is ze geschikt om de Schwalbe Super Moto-X 62-584 band, zie https://www.schwalbe.com/nl/tour-reader/super-moto-x.html , voldoende stabiliteit te geven?
Er is namelijk enige onduidelijkheid, Schwalbe geeft in de tabel op https://www.schwalbe.com/nl/reifenmasse.html "Welke band past op welke velg" een bereik aan van
"Velgbedbreedte in mm (westwood velg)" 19C tot 29C."
Uw Yura 22 model is 22 mm breed, en zou volgens Schwalbe (als ik hier niets over het hoofd zie) moeten volstaan.
Maar in uw specificatie op http://www.ryde.nl/yura-22 staat:
"From the same design as the Yura 19, the Yura 22 is meant for wider tyres. Up to 55 mm are easily accepted and the wider rim improves the performance of these tyres."
De Schwalbe band is met zijn 62 mm dus meer dan de door uw velg "easily accepted" limiet van 55 mm.

And this is another mail, sent the same day, to tyre producer Schwalbe:

Geachte,
Een vraag.
De velg van Ryde, model Yura 22, is deze breed genoeg om uw Super Moto-X
62-584 betrouwbare (geen instabiliteit) steun te geven?
De velgspecificaties zijn hier te vinden: http://www.ryde.nl/yura-22
Volgens uw tabel op https://www.schwalbe.com/nl/reifenmasse.html moet
voor een 62 mm band de velgbedbreedte in het bereik 19C-29C (19-29 mm
neem ik aan) liggen.
De velg Yura 22 is 22 mm en dus binnen het bereik, maar op hun
specificatiepagina staat "Up to 55 mm are easily accepted".
Wat suggereert dat 62 mm... moeilijk is.
Groeten,

This was the answer of Schwalbe (last mail of above 2) that answered first (the next day):

Op een 22mm brede velg is het zeker mogelijk om de Schwalbe Super Moto-X in de maat 62-584.
Het is inderdaad zo dat een 62 mm brede band op een velg van 19c ( 19mm ) t/m 29c ( 29mm ) past.
En dus valt de Schwalbe Super Moto-X in de maat 62-584 binnen deze marge.
Wel is het zo dat er bij bredere velgen en een lagere bandenspanning de band minder snel sponzig wordt.
Dit kunt u ook terug vinden op onze site bij de reeds door u doorgestuurde link.
Mocht u naar aanleiding van deze mail en de Schwalbe site nog vragen hebben zijn wij uiteraard bereid deze voor u te beantwoorden.
Vertrouwende uw mail met uiterste zorgvuldigheid beantwoord te hebben, verblijven wij,
Met sportieve groet,

Ryde didn't answer.
On 12/07/2017 I've sent this mail to the producer of my bike:

Geachte,
Voor uw model Travelmaster 3+ voorzien van bovenstaande band (62 mm breed), welke velgbreedte voorziet u standaard, en welke bijhorende bandendruk adviseert u?
Groeten,

On 13/07/2017 this was the answer:

De binnenbreedte van je velg is 24mm.
Kort door de bocht adviseer ik zo min mogelijk druk in je banden te pompen. Ga opzoek naar het punt dat je nog wel soepel rijdt, maar niet meer dweilt in de bochten.
Ik ben 65kg. en pomp deze band op ergens tussen de 1,6 en 1,9 bar. Dat hangt af van de hoeveelheid bagage en de staat van de weg.
Ik raad berijders aan eens op de terugweg naar huis wat lucht uit hun banden te laten om te ontdekken wat de ondergrens is.
Succes en bel of mail als je nog vragen hebt

You can use a translate site to get an idea.
I was told that my rim was 24 mm width. That was wrong, it was 22mm.
This person said he weighted 65 kg and pumped pressure to 1.6-1.9 bar.
My case: I am 83 kg, my default luggage (tools, spares, ties, ropes, backpacks, double bag, basket, lock chain, water, food etc) is 10-15 kg.

Lastly, I can only repeat once again:
First, for clarity: I name "inner wall" as the rim wall closest to the wheels center, and "outer wall" as the rim wall farest away from it.
Second, the wheel had 2 (TWO) cracks, I discovered the 10 cm inner wall crack, and when bringing the wheel to the dealer, he discovered (and showed me) a second crack, walking the entire circumference of the outer wall of the rim (thats a multitude of those 10 cm), crossing and separating all spoke holes.
Third, the bike is not a mountainbike, it's a travel bike. Dedicated to long distances, lots of luggage and best quality/most reliable parts.
I was given 55 and 62 mm tyrreinflationare width options, I chosed the latter. I didn't ask for a specific rim brand/width whatever.
Clearly, the rim they chosed was/is not able to withstand a 3.2 bar pressure. First the outer wall cracked completely, then the inner wall, with me discovering it after the crack got wide enough.
I think the crack in the inner wall did close up and expand with tyre pressure. Because thats simply what I experienced.

 

[iandg]

I had a rear wheel scraping noise once. It was a bulge in the rim from brake pad wear.

 

[silva]

Why could my bikes' producer/dealer have chosen for this 22 mm rim width - 62 mm tyre width combination?
One would expect a wider rim for a wider tyre.
My bike isn't an old / existing bike conversion to a wider tyre.
It was an order for a new bike, with lotsa luggage capability and "bombproof" as to minimalize failures and corresponding misery, and fixed gear. The price tag was 4300 euro.
The bike frame is designed to allow both chain and belt drive and Rohloff hub, and two interchangeable wheel models, wide and narrow, so one could mount wide when for a vacation along poor roads, and narrow for home/work on paved roads.
At least, that's the advertisement.
The price must surely have ruled out any cost saving based reason. No expensive Rohloff, no belt.
So what might have limited the rim width choice then?

 

[silva]

I had a rear wheel scraping noise once. It was a bulge in the rim from brake pad wear.

Aside, but me too, on previous bikes I now and then had broken spoke(s) causing wheel deformation and rim already touching brake pad without braking. A bulge in a rim I never had.
I also don't brake that much, and since fixed gear I barely use them anymore, I anticipate and put backforce on the pedals to slowdown, no brakes used. Only that I now suffer wheel deformation due to cracks, so cause and consequence have swapped - it's the wheel itself that brakes, not me pushing the brake levers haha.

 

[Ajax Bay]

@silva - it's not us you have to persuade, it's the supply chain. I'd have thought someone who knows as much about bikes as you and will/can pay £4000+ on a bike should be able to make informed decisions on tyre width, wheel rim width and so on. I've offered my view: you agreed/specified the width of tyre to fit on rims, the width of which you knew (or could quickly determine), you pumped them up to too high a pressure thinking that that would solve the squirming issue (when in fact that's a product of too wide tyres for the rim - see the Sheldon Brown quote) and the combo resulted in a rim failure, which you failed to notice until the cracks were 100mm+ long. I appreciate that for that money you should get excellent, flawless advice, but you are the very well informed customer. I also appreciate that you will always have the last word. Turn that energy to where it's useful (hint: not here).

 

[silva]

@Ajax Bay - one can only decide on information basis given.
- I was told that the chain line would be 100% straight. It was 5 mm not.
- I didn't want hydraulic brakes (my big goal is to keep things simple so that I can do it myself - also means that I know nothing about bikes) but was told that cable brakes didn't exist for 62 mm tires. Recently I was told they were.
- Upon explicit asking, after I saw pictures and started to doubt, if a wheel can be removed without having to unmount both brake modules or without having to empty the tyre, I got the answer "of course not, THAT would be silly" followed by a laugh. It WAS like that.
- I was told that my double bag would have plenty support - NOT, I had to mount triangular extenders at the rear, and construct a rear light mount in order to make it not hide between the bag ends.
- I wasn't told that a fork lock wasn't possible, inflicting me the mess of a lose bike lock in a bag.
- I wasn't told that the lights couldn't be switched off.
- I wasn't told that the bike stands mount would be with stainless steel bolts through an aluminium adjustment block, causing galvanic corrosion fretting out the bolt holes and causing a big play.
- I wasn't told that the chainring would be 3/32" wide instead of the asked for 1/8" and that a 1/8" would require a new crankset and a longer spindle.
- I wasn't told that the spindle / bottom bracket mount wasn't locktited - I had to discover it after a couple weeks riding when the chainring was scratching the frame.
- The rims were declared as "bombproof". I wasn't told that a tyre pressure of 3 bar would split them in two. I was given the rim width only when the bike was in late production phase.
- I was told that there wasn't an "overdimensioned" (the word I used in my question for) and by that longer lasting chain. There was, typically used for transport bikes: same inner width but double as thick sideplates. I found brand Gusset model "tank". It held out 18 months, most of it under a 5mm wrong chainline condition.
I'll skip the rest.

Upon my first visit, I had asked for a complete list of the used bicycle parts, to THEN decide whether or not ordering. Not good for the dealer - I was asked for a 2500 euro ahead payment, "to give the engineers something to work with" (yes literally).
In the light of aboves problems, I now wonder what engineers that were, agricultural instead of technical?

What you name "advice" was not, it should have been "lies", which also voids your word "flawless" - a lie is on purpose, a flaw is not.
Your statement "you are the very well informed customer", is good for soap, not reality.
I had no reason to look under the rim tape, due to wrong information.
The inner wall crack became only visible in an unloaded condition when it was 10 cm long. Before (read: shorter crack) wheel load made it visible and I can't check a rim while riding the bike.

Finally, your "last word" is only relevant in irrelevant discussions (same hint).

 

[silva]

Another one @Ajax Bay - it's also proven that the crack in the inner wall changed width - just read back in this thread, when I put the bike upside down and rotate the wheel by hand, I heard nothing. The noise - contact between sidewall of rim and anything else including and most notably brake pads, was only heard during riding. This clearly proves that the crack became wider under load. So if I only inspect the bike upside down, the crack closed enough to not notice it.

Which makes your:
"I'd say not so the crack would not 'close up' when the wheel was unloaded."
... wrong.
Not that I not appreciate your help, but at least try to base your comment on all I've said, not just a part of it.

 

[Ajax Bay]

I put the bike upside down

Velominati Rule #49