Red light jumping. Ok or not ?

[Angelfishsolo]

Indeed - and I'm not questioning your right to believe it's morally wrong to jump a red light, just your conjecture that this thread is a post about legality (which formed the basis of one of your other arguments).

I have answered the question with right or wrong in mind. I have also pointed out that a belief that something is right or wrong can fly in the face of the legal system and eventually lead to Anarchy.

 

[Buddfox]

Conversely to choose which laws you wish to obey is a step towards an Anarchic society. I may feel 70mph is too slow for motorway driving and elect the drive at 90mph. Is that morally valid? If we go down that path then laws become meaningless.

I know the red light thing gets you worked up, but can we try just for one thread to move away from the extremes? There is a grey area between obeying all laws just because they are the law and a seemingly interminable descent into anarchy (I still can't believe Lord of the Flies was referenced in another thread) - it's where we are in the real world. Wouldn't we have reached anarchy by now since human society has never existed in a state where every person obeys every law? A step towards anarchy really means a step towards normality - anarchy's quite a long way from that! Or if it's a step, that's all it is - a step to a healthy world where people make their own decisions, and then stop.

 

[Angelfishsolo]

I know the red light thing gets you worked up, but can we try just for one thread to move away from the extremes? There is a grey area between obeying all laws just because they are the law and a seemingly interminable descent into anarchy (I still can't believe Lord of the Flies was referenced in another thread) - it's where we are in the real world. Wouldn't we have reached anarchy by now since human society has never existed in a state where every person obeys every law? A step towards anarchy really means a step towards normality - anarchy's quite a long way from that! Or if it's a step, that's all it is - a step to a healthy world where people make their own decisions, and then stop.

How is breaking the speed limit an extreme?

 

[SportMonkey]

Quick question with your moral rights; do you buy any Nestle, Nescafe, L'Oreal or Body Shop?

 

[rowan 46]

Conversely to choose which laws you wish to obey is a step towards an Anarchic society. I may feel 70mph is too slow for motorway driving and elect the drive at 90mph. Is that morally valid? If we go down that path then laws become meaningless.

We all choose every day which laws we observe. laws are a societal construct by which the state controls its citizens. There are plenty of people who regularly step around the law and never harm anyone (some drug users for example) there are some people who stick to the law and destroy peoples lives (eg some bankers) I am of the opinion no harm no foul cycling through an empty red light at midnight puts nobody at risk and in my mind doesn't break the spirit of the law. cycling through a red light with peds there is a different matter. In my eyes being a good citizen involves questioning and understanding your society if you didn't do that bad laws will not get changed. Blindly following is not being a good citizen, good citizenry involves activism whether that be through volunteering, politics or whatever anyway I digress. I don't believe you when you say you follow the law because it's the law. You don't strike me as that unthinking. I believe you when you mention safety it is a valid, credible and honourable position but the "law is the law" is a copout and not a credible position for any rational person to take.

 

[rowan 46]

Red Light jumping is against the law thus it is wrong.

I think Red Light jumping is against the law thus it is wrong.

FTFY

 

[Angelfishsolo]

I think Red Light jumping is against the law thus it is wrong.

FTFY

If you can provide evidence that RLJ is legal then the amended statement is valid.

 

[rowan 46]

If you can provide evidence that RLJ is legal then the amended statement is valid.

I am not arguing with the legality aspect but right and wrong is a moral perspective therefore the statement is not valid
the factual part is RLJ is illegal

 

[Angelfishsolo]

I am not arguing with the legality aspect but right and wrong is a moral perspective therefore the statement is not valid

You stated "I think RLJing is illegal". Thus you are arguing the legality of it.

 

[Glover Fan]

Ignoring all the drivel and pedanticities above I am in the sometimes camp.

When turning left with good visibility I will sometimes RLJ, remember as cyclists we can hear as well as see whereas in most situations car/van and lorry drivers can-not.

I personally feel after midnight a lot of traffic lights in quiet areas should be switched off. I have known a lot of people to RLJ after midnight and the problem you will get is that someone will rightfully go through a green light without checking whether if it is safe to do so* and there lies a problem. If they had to treat it as a junction then everybody would have to concentrate. Obviously there are situations where traffic lights could and should not be switched off.

*I think if my memory serves me right you should always check the road is clear even when going through a green light anyway.

Obviously I will be in the minority judging from the poll but hey forums are about opinions.

 

[apollo179]

FWIW and in response to the first post, I thought the conjecture in the other post was that the majority of cyclists (not CC forum members) might believe that RLJ'ing is OK?

Correct and an important distiction.

Can i just qualify the findings of your research with a few considerations.
The people on this forum are generally intelligent, informed and interested about cycling issues, and socially responsible. The majority of cyclists out there do not belong to this forum and imho are not so well informed or interested about cycling issues and display varying levels of intelligence and social responsibility.
Therefore given that your poll is confined to this forum and its socially responsible members i would predict that the results will show an inclination to the "it is not ok to rlj" more so than if a poll was conducted of all cyclists.
The homeland of rljing is little britain territory - the kind of person who if they saw this forum and this topic would wonder what on earth we are doing discussing rljing - bothered - i think not.

 

[rowan 46]

You stated "I think RLJing is illegal". Thus you are arguing the legality of it.

You stated "RLJ is illegal thus it is wrong " one sentence, the "thus it is wrong" bit changes the meaning of the sentence from a fact to an opinion by introducing the moral dimension. It is your opinion that it is wrong to disobey a law a view that not everybody shares

 

[rowan 46]

Ignoring all the drivel and pedanticities above I am in the sometimes camp.

When turning left with good visibility I will sometimes RLJ, remember as cyclists we can hear as well as see whereas in most situations car/van and lorry drivers can-not.

I personally feel after midnight a lot of traffic lights in quiet areas should be switched off. I have known a lot of people to RLJ after midnight and the problem you will get is that someone will rightfully go through a green light without checking whether if it is safe to do so* and there lies a problem. If they had to treat it as a junction then everybody would have to concentrate. Obviously there are situations where traffic lights could and should not be switched off.

*I think if my memory serves me right you should always check the road is clear even when going through a green light anyway.

Obviously I will be in the minority judging from the poll but hey forums are about opinions.

I'll join your minority as I feel you are talking sense

 

[Jezston]

I think Red Light jumping is against the law thus it is wrong.

FTFY

I think what you meant to say was:

Red light jumping is against the law thus I think it is wrong.

 

[Seigi]

I believe that RLJing can be OK so long as it's done either A. In a safe manner (For instance, getting off bike and pushing through, or riding through slowly checking all directions) or B. For your own safety (Such as to escape impatient drivers encroaching up your back end, or to move for emergency vehicles). However I've never had to jump a red light for the record. I would consider jumping a red light if I was literally the only person in the area.