Reducing front wheel weight

[paraffinlamps]

Well, to say that you accelerate out of a corner implies that you have lost speed going into the corner and need to make up for it.
To carry speed through corners (thanks to your Zondas) suggests that your wheels have momentum and prevent loss of speed.
Acceleration requires less mass, momentum requires more mass. Which is it?
You are digging yourself deeper into that hole by now adding that Zondas are better at going around corners too. How do you explain that? Either they follow the line you dictate or they don't. There is no middle ground there. But if you really want to explain "going better around corners" I suggest you try and express it in units of measurements of sorts. No need to give me the quantities, just state what units you envisage for this action.

I have no beef with you but this debate has been muddled by some very fuzzy statements which all detract from the facts.

Ok fair point there are no physical units I can give to explain how they feel . It is an emotion as you have eluded to in the past . I accept that wheels either go round corners following the line you dictate or dont .
I will just say that for me when I am crit/track racing my Campag Zondas are better than my Mavic Aksium wheels .
When I used the Zondas on the same bike with the same tyres/tubes that were previously on the Mavic Aksium on the same track I didnt get lapped as per the previous 2 races using the Mavic Aksiums . My average speed for the race was also higher.
Perhaps the weather played a part ? Ironically it was windier on the day I used the Zondas and there was a head wind down a fairly long straight . You can see on the day I used my Zondas the top 10 finishers were actually a fair bit slower ( in racing terms )
Stats for the races
Race 1 My average 20.7 mph top 10 finisher 22.7 mph ( Mavic Aksium )
Race 2 My Average 19.9 mph top 10 finisher 23.5 mph ( Mavic Aksium )
Race 3 My Average 21.4 mph top 10 finisher 21.6 mph ( This was the day of the nasty headwind and the day I used my Zondas )
These races were over 3 consecutive weekends ( Wooly Mamil Crit ) .
Strava Race 1 https://www.strava.com/activities/471688918
Strava Race 2 https://www.strava.com/activities/476704054
Strava Race 3 https://www.strava.com/activities/481999122

 

[Yellow Saddle]

Ok fair point there are no physical units I can give to explain how they feel . It is an emotion as you have eluded to in the past . I accept that wheels either go round corners following the line you dictate or don't.

OK, so it was an emotion you experienced? Emotions obviously don't "carry speed through corners" nor do they "accelerate out of turns". Depending on what your biorithms looked like on that day or the colour of your mood ring was on the day, you may have felt faster or slower, but it had nothing to do with the wheels, I'm sure.

I will just say that for me when I am crit/track racing my Campag Zondas are better than my Mavic Aksium wheels .
When I used the Zondas on the same bike with the same tyres/tubes that were previously on the Mavic Aksium on the same track I didnt get lapped as per the previous 2 races using the Mavic Aksiums . My average speed for the race was also higher.

Oh, so it is not emotion then? It is real? When riding Zondas you don't get lapped, when riding Aksiums you do get lapped. I wonder what will happen if the entire peloton rode on Zondas. Will it be like when both generals pray to God to let their side win the battle.

Perhaps the weather played a part ?

With your emotions or your speed?

Ironically it was windier on the day I used the Zondas and there was a head wind down a fairly long straight . You can see on the day I used my Zondas the top 10 finishers were actually a fair bit slower ( in racing terms ).

Good thing you were on the Zondas that day and the rest of the pack on their Aksiums.

Stats for the races
Race 1 My average 20.7 mph top 10 finisher 22.7 mph ( Mavic Aksium )
Race 2 My Average 19.9 mph top 10 finisher 23.5 mph ( Mavic Aksium )
Race 3 My Average 21.4 mph top 10 finisher 21.6 mph ( This was the day of the nasty headwind and the day I used my Zondas )
These races were over 3 consecutive weekends ( Wooly Mamil Crit ) .
Strava Race 1 https://www.strava.com/activities/471688918
Strava Race 2 https://www.strava.com/activities/476704054
Strava Race 3 https://www.strava.com/activities/481999122

There we have it. Zondas are fast, quick, fast-rolling, accelerate well, carry speed in corners, track like rail carts and bombproof.

 

[paraffinlamps]

OK, so it was an emotion you experienced? Emotions obviously don't "carry speed through corners" nor do they "accelerate out of turns". Depending on what your biorithms looked like on that day or the colour of your mood ring was on the day, you may have felt faster or slower, but it had nothing to do with the wheels, I'm sure.



Oh, so it is not emotion then? It is real? When riding Zondas you don't get lapped, when riding Aksiums you do get lapped. I wonder what will happen if the entire peloton rode on Zondas. Will it be like when both generals pray to God to let their side win the battle.



With your emotions or your speed?



Good thing you were on the Zondas that day and the rest of the pack on their Aksiums.



There we have it. Zondas are fast, quick, fast-rolling, accelerate well, carry speed in corners, track like rail carts and bombproof.

I thought you liked facts and data ?
Over 3 races I was faster on my Zondas than my Aksiums . Are you denying that ? .
What in your esteemed opinion made me faster on that day if it wasn`t the wheels .
Everything on the bike was the same including tyres and tubes . Clothing was the same . My weight was the same within say 2Kg ( I`m probably over estimating here ) . Track was the same . Only other difference was the weather . It was windier on the last race .

 

[midlife]

Just curious, way back in the 70's I rode around all day long on my 27x1 1/4 Carlton steel wheels with HP tyres but when I put on the sprints and tubs for the time trials I'm sure I could tell the difference.......... Was I mistaken?

Shaun

 

[PhilDawson8270]

I thought you liked facts and data ?
Over 3 races I was faster on my Zondas than my Aksiums . Are you denying that ? .
What in your esteemed opinion made me faster on that day if it wasn`t the wheels .
Everything on the bike was the same including tyres and tubes . Clothing was the same . My weight was the same within say 2Kg ( I`m probably over estimating here ) . Track was the same . Only other difference was the weather . It was windier on the last race .

2kg is a hell of a discrepancy. More than the saving in the wheels. If the wheels can save that much, then the weigh differences will make a bigger difference.

Also, weather for each run? Wind speed, direction, temperature, and humidity? Diet, energy levels, leading up to, and food during the event? Power output data? The true test, would be back to back tests, with power data.

Holding the same speed, the "faster" wheel SHOULD have less power output.

The GPS trace in those links is also extremely poor and unreliable.

 

[PhilDawson8270]

It's also worth noting the placebo effect of wheels.

Believing they are faster, can certainly make you faster.

Similar to the number of professional athletes you see with this kinesthetic tape, despite all the research that shows they do nothing. They still use it, and I'm sure their performance would reduce if they stopped. It doesn't mean it's actually doing anything though.

Correlation is not causation.

 

[Dogtrousers]

It's also worth noting the placebo effect of wheels.

Believing they are faster, can certainly make you faster.

Similar to the number of professional athletes you see with this kinesthetic tape, despite all the research that shows they do nothing. They still use it, and I'm sure their performance would reduce if they stopped. It doesn't mean it's actually doing anything though.

Correlation is not causation.

The placebo effect is causal though.

 

[paraffinlamps]

2kg is a hell of a discrepancy. More than the saving in the wheels. If the wheels can save that much, then the weigh differences will make a bigger difference.

As I said , that may have been an over estimation. Also I didn`t say I was 2Kg lighter just that my weight may have varied by 2Kg . So I could have been 2Kg heavier on the first 2 and 2Kg lighter on the last . However it is also possible I was 2Kg lighter on the first 2 and 2Kg heavier on the last

Also, weather for each run? Wind speed, direction, temperature, and humidity? Diet, energy levels, leading up to, and food during the event? Power output data? The true test, would be back to back tests, with power data.

Even back to back though there could still be variables in some of the above . On the first race the wind dropped after the first few laps and even during the last race the wind was gusting . So sometimes down the long straight it was stronger . That could affect back to back data no ?

Holding the same speed, the "faster" wheel SHOULD have less power output.

My original post was more about whether a stiffer wheel accelerated quicker. The races are crit/track races , so basically a 30-45 second sprint , brake and repeat . I wondered if the stiffer wheel actually helped accelerating out of the corners and therefore helped to increase my overall average / prevent me being lapped .
I have already said in my first post #115 that I can tell no difference between my Zondas and Farsports 50mm deep section wheels on a club ride.

The GPS trace in those links is also extremely poor and unreliable.

I was under the impression that garmin takes its speed information primarily from the rear wheel speed sensor not GPS ?

Yes I can see what you are saying about the placebo effect. However I would say I`ve had the Zondas a couple of years . The Aksiums were Brand new . The Farsports are about a year old.
Also generally in race , at my age , especially a crit you are flat out from the off and attempt to sustain that no matter what you are on

 

[Justinslow]

This is getting (a long time ago) silly.
Lighter wheels will help those of us who compete, to go quicker - fact.
End of.

 

[Yellow Saddle]

I thought you liked facts and data ?
Over 3 races I was faster on my Zondas than my Aksiums . Are you denying that ? .
What in your esteemed opinion made me faster on that day if it wasn`t the wheels .
Everything on the bike was the same including tyres and tubes . Clothing was the same . My weight was the same within say 2Kg ( I`m probably over estimating here ) . Track was the same . Only other difference was the weather . It was windier on the last race .

Others have hinted towards what I'm going to tell you. I think you can do yourself a favour by learning how experiments are conducted in science. The way you've presented your data and the disregard for variables makes your experiment worthless.
All variables have to be tightly controlled, there has to be a control experiment, the experiment has to be repeatable by anyone else. The experiment is repeated a couple of times then the data analysed, abnormal spikes in the data re-examined and either thrown out or re-tested, the methods are carefully scrutinized to be consistent and absolutely nothing is left to chance. Even then, the interpretation of the data is subject to review by others who all have an axe to grind and are trying their utmost to find holes in the experiment somewhere.
Your experiment fails on so many levels that I don't even want to start pulling it apart. I am serious, go learn about experiments and how to draw conclusions from data. I'm sure you have a library somewhere where you can go and spend a few hours learning about how science is done. You can also, as a start, google some obscure study and see how scientific papers are presented. There are plenty online. Just make sure it is presented by a university student, not a commercial entity.
I do believe you are sincere and you tried hard to convince us but the flaws are glaring.

 

[TomAndrew91]

Not wanting to stoke the flames of an old post or wind yellow saddle up any more, but I have just finished my first week with a new set of wheels.

Old wheels (with tyres and inners) weighed 3.6kg
New wheels (with tyres and inners) weigh 2.1kg

This difference is amazing. Whether it is psychological or physical and tangible I don't care but makes a genuine difference. My acceleration off the line (important on a single speed) has improved massively, so much so that I have managed to reduce the teeth on the rear cog from 18 to 16 and still accelerate quick enough in traffic and at lights etc.

I can climb hills quicker and easier than before (in particular when the gradient changes suddenly I can react better) - this is before the cog change.

As to speed, before I changed the cog I found I was spinning out much more easily and can now run with a high Gear Inch with no visible increase in exertion.

Therefore to conclude on my original post, I would highly recommend reducing your bike weight. Might not be worth paying an arm and a leg to do so, but for me to spend a relatively little amount and improve the feel, speed and performance of my bike has been more than worth it.

 

[winjim]

Not wanting to... ...wind yellow saddle up any more...

...rear cog...

Heh

 

[jamin100]

Just buy a new bike they always feel faster

 

[Justinslow]

Not wanting to stoke the flames of an old post or wind yellow saddle up any more, but I have just finished my first week with a new set of wheels.

Old wheels (with tyres and inners) weighed 3.6kg
New wheels (with tyres and inners) weigh 2.1kg

This difference is amazing. Whether it is psychological or physical and tangible I don't care but makes a genuine difference. My acceleration off the line (important on a single speed) has improved massively, so much so that I have managed to reduce the teeth on the rear cog from 18 to 16 and still accelerate quick enough in traffic and at lights etc.

I can climb hills quicker and easier than before (in particular when the gradient changes suddenly I can react better) - this is before the cog change.

As to speed, before I changed the cog I found I was spinning out much more easily and can now run with a high Gear Inch with no visible increase in exertion.

Therefore to conclude on my original post, I would highly recommend reducing your bike weight. Might not be worth paying an arm and a leg to do so, but for me to spend a relatively little amount and improve the feel, speed and performance of my bike has been more than worth it.

Good for you mate! Hope the advice from some of the posters was of help

 

[TomAndrew91]

Good for you mate! Hope the advice from some of the posters was of help

It was, thank you very much!