Reflective Paint

[Arch]

Your probably right. It probably wouldn't fit too well down the narrow street of York either.....

As a matter of fact, a member of staff here is involved with a project studying the history of Jodrell Bank. I'll ask him, next time he's visiting, to bring me one back...

 

[BentMikey]

I'm not guilty of risk compensation. Can you prove that I am?

You and the others on here have proved that you're risk compensating - you've admitted you're not keen to cycle without wearing hiviz. Ergo risk compensation.

How can you say this conversation is a wasted effort? Visibility is a priority in cycling and is right up there with road position and cyclecraft.

Visibility, yes, but that's achieved by road positioning, using lights and std reflectors when appropriate. Hiviz doesn't add significantly to that.

 

[BentMikey]

Road position, cyclecraft and visibility. Surely they are all equally important.

Road positioning and cycle craft (part of the same thing really) are several orders of magnitude more important than hiviz clothing. I put to you that you're being a little bit disingenuous by changing your tack from hiviz to visibility, or maybe that's just your way of moving towards my point of view?

Your left hook video is a great example of hiviz not working. It's like that nearly all the time because drivers see us just fine and don't give a toss. It's only a tiny percentage that don't look, and they wouldn't have seen a bus.

 

[BentMikey]

Oh, I went into Bromley on the bus today, and counted 8 workmen wearing hiviz, and only one cyclist. There were 3 other cyclists not wearing hiviz. My bet is that any driver is just as likely to assume workman and not think cyclist if he were to catch a glimpse out of the corner of his eye, that is if he were to think at all.

Just like the driver in Magnatom's video, seeing cyclist wearing hiviz doesn't mean anything to a driver because we're no threat to them. Most don't think we're actually moving, and wouldn't care anyway.

 

[BentMikey]

I don't mind the discussion, I get irritated by people suggesting and even asserting that Hi Viz is useless, ditto helmets

not saying you did either

Sometimes I don't like inconvenient facts either, but eventually I can't stop ignoring them. I used to be very pro-helmet, and was convinced by the evidence and against my will that they were largely a waste of money.

I really can't understand why helmets and hiviz get so much attention, and proper riding so little when the safety equipment has a negligible effect on safety by comparison with good cycle craft. One good thing is that with all the helmet cameras around, the message about cyclecraft is hopefully being spread much better than before. Particular props to Magnatom for being so active in this.

 

[Jacomus-rides-Gen]

I am going to put something else in here, that I have only seen vuagely touched on by Magnatom , where he calls Mikey an experienced rider.

Speed.

I am a very fit, experienced cyclist who rides a painstakingly maintained and tuned roadbike. I ride very fast, and in a busy town / city situation this speed keeps overtaking cars at bay, lets me take a very dominant road position, and I am comfortable wearing my (what I think) is stylish black and red kit, relying on my lights alone.

I get noticed and feel very safe - safer in fact cycling through central London than I do driving through it.

Out here, where the speed limit is 60mph in most places, the roads are wide and treated like racetracks, the kind of position I hold in town is suicide. There is no other word to describe how terminally stupid cycling in the middle of the road is.

I think it is all about closing speed.

When riding alone on the busy roads out of town I wear a reflective yellow Sam Browne, it is unobtrusive and personal testing has led me to conclude that out of town it has a beneficial effect, especially since it contrasts so strongly with my black jersey.

In town there is no discernable difference.

When cycling in town with my gf, who is less experienced, and is weighed down with a ton of steel mtb, a HiVi jacket or Sam Browne makes a huge difference.

A cyclist riding fast in heavy traffic is easy for cagers to spot because they are in vision for a relatively long time as closing speed is low. The higher the closing speed, the more that HiVi makes a difference as it grabs attention from the background by being unusual.

I think this is where urban camo arguments fall down, as the speed of the vehicle is not taken into account. At low closing speed, a moving blob of HiVi is not any use, because compared to the approaching driver, it is moving little, and once registered becomes redundant as the whole cyclist is in view for the whole approach.

At high closing speed, the HiVi blob that registers makes perople think "What's that?" and serves as a reference that they are going to be approaching something that is either stationary / as good as staionary compared to the approaching vehicle.

So I think HiVi has a place for slow city riders, and any rider out on fast roads.

 

[BentMikey]

That's quite a good point JRG, and not too far from my own feelings. Fast A-roads are one of the few situations that hiviz might be more useful. As for the urban camo description, that doesn't really apply there, since the situation is no longer urban. OTOH, since being hit from behind is one of the least common accident types, hiviz or no hiviz options are going to have an even smaller effect on safety.

Since being safe would seem to be a fairly common goal for all of us, it might be better to look at what the most common accident types are, and whether hiviz might help in those situations.

 

[Jacomus-rides-Gen]

That's quite a good point JRG

Since being safe would seem to be a fairly common goal for all of us, it might be better to look at what the most common accident types are, and whether hiviz might help in those situations.

I think this is the approach that should be taken, personally.

Most accidents are caused by the cyclist losing control of their bike, and crashing all by themselves, with no 'help'. HiVi isn't going to stop you chucking it down the road because you take a corner too fast, or brake hard on a wet manhole cover etc

Most collisions happen at junctions, non-traffic light controlled ones (if I remember my TfL data!) and involve another vehicle pulling out into, or directly into the path of a bike. Causing a collision.

Here I think that HiVi can be useful, if the cyclist is moving sedately, as the careless driver gets the chance to change their mind about pulling out. HiVi on a fast moving cyclist is perhaps less useful as they have already been hit by the time the driver choses not to go. Hence most bike into car collisions happen with the car stationary - the driver pulls out whilst slowly computing the blur that came towards them, then just before the "smack" of human into metal they finally reach the "oh f*ck! Its a bike" conclusion and jump on the brakes. The bike hits the stationary car and everyone says that the cyclist appeared from nowhere, because the car was stopped, so there would be no reason for anyone but a reckless individual to ride into the side of it.

So I refine my feelings on HiVi - it works when the car is closing the bike down fast, but not the other way round as they still don't work out what the rushing shape is, HiVi or not.

The only adequate risk reduction at junctions IMO is to move to primary, cover the brakes, and prepare for an emergency stop.

 

[LLB]

I think this is the approach that should be taken, personally.

Most accidents are caused by the cyclist losing control of their bike, and crashing all by themselves, with no 'help'. HiVi isn't going to stop you chucking it down the road because you take a corner too fast, or brake hard on a wet manhole cover etc

Most collisions happen at junctions, non-traffic light controlled ones (if I remember my TfL data!) and involve another vehicle pulling out into, or directly into the path of a bike. Causing a collision.

Here I think that HiVi can be useful, if the cyclist is moving sedately, as the careless driver gets the chance to change their mind about pulling out. HiVi on a fast moving cyclist is perhaps less useful as they have already been hit by the time the driver choses not to go. Hence most bike into car collisions happen with the car stationary - the driver pulls out whilst slowly computing the blur that came towards them, then just before the "smack" of human into metal they finally reach the "oh f*ck! Its a bike" conclusion and jump on the brakes. The bike hits the stationary car and everyone says that the cyclist appeared from nowhere, because the car was stopped, so there would be no reason for anyone but a reckless individual to ride into the side of it.

So I refine my feelings on HiVi - it works when the car is closing the bike down fast, but not the other way round as they still don't work out what the rushing shape is, HiVi or not.

The only adequate risk reduction at junctions IMO is to move to primary, cover the brakes, and prepare for an emergency stop.

Do you not feel that the smaller focal point of the approaching cyclist has any contribution to this (IE small headlight unit projecting equally small headlight beam) as opposed to a large vehicle with big bright headlights approaching at the same speed ?

 

[Tynan]

offs

hi viz doesn't cause accidents and can't make things worse, of course it doesn't help in some situations, so what? no-ones calling it some sort of panacea

as for urban camo, how can you get more camo than muted colours blending in with the surrounding colours

if you don't want to wear it don't, but please don;t pretend that it's a bad thing for cyclists to wear if they want to

 

[BentMikey]

hi viz doesn't cause accidents and can't make things worse

That's quite an assumption to be making! I'd agree it doesn't cause accidents, but to say it can't make things worse is wrong. *Points to the number of people indignantly posting about a driver not seeing them whilst they were wearing hiviz*. There's a tendency to replace responsibility for good cycle craft with wearing hiviz instead.

 

[Tynan]

you can post that last point as much as you like, no agrees with it do they, it's nonsense, people stop trying when they put on a hi viz coat?

and not being seen with hi viz proves that hi viz makes you invisible does it? dear god!

sometimes you can have a brass band on the rack and be letting off fireworks and they still won't see, that's the nature of it

I read the helmets website that argues they're not helpful, and even make things worse, what utter dross arguments on there too, very disappointing, the same arse about reverse logic

 

[BentMikey]

That's just your bias showing up. Several of the people writing that website are ardent helmet wearers.

 

[magnatom]

You and the others on here have proved that you're risk compensating - you've admitted you're not keen to cycle without wearing hiviz. Ergo risk compensation.



Visibility, yes, but that's achieved by road positioning, using lights and std reflectors when appropriate. Hiviz doesn't add significantly to that.

I'm just on for a short while today, but I had to reply to this!

So what your saying is that because I wear hiviz I am risk compensating .

I think the word you are looking for here is risk reducing. Please explain in what way am I compensating?

You are saying my point of view is changing. No. Visibility is aided by what you wear as well as the lights you have and the reflectors you have. I have always stated that hi-viz is complementary.

In fact I could be a little pedantic here and suggest that you are coming to my view. By saying Hiviz doesn't add significantly to that you are now admitting that wearing hi-viz adds to visibility. You have previously stated otherwise (from memory, as I am not going to go back over the posts).

 

[magnatom]

*Points to the number of people indignantly posting about a driver not seeing them whilst they were wearing hiviz*.

...and where have they suggested that this was a result of wearing hi-viz. I'll say it again.... SMIDSY's will happen (when they don't look at all), but when a driver gives a short glance, wearing a hi-viz can help. Your quoting anecdotes which can always be used to support any argument.