Reflective Tips (Part 2)

[mattsr]

I too use my lights during the day and you are correct about those drivers that do not look, will not see you no matter what, however this type of driver is thankfully in the minority and the longer I am visible to them and from the greatest distance increases my chances of them eventually seeing me. There has to be a limit to how far someone can drive without looking and hopefully they will exit the road before they get anywhere near me.

(Anecdote alert) - A19 several years ago, I saw a motorist go past 3 traffic cars at a collision scene, lane closure, all with rear chevrons and rear red/blue flashing strobes illuminated, before crashing in to the back of the 4th car (prior to the lane being coned off).

As rare as these people are, they do share the roads with us and will pose a threat no matter what we wear or how we ride, but other than sitting at home, wrapped in cotton wool, what choice do we have other than to continue in our efforts to make ourselves as visible as possible.

Pure assumption, but exactly how visible each of us wants to be will depend to varying degrees on previous experiences and working environments etc.

Ps. My new Altura Evo jacket is supposed to have a better quality zip and I'll be the first to complain if any of them go

Agree with all the above- and I have the Altura Evo Jacket- the zip is a great improvement on the old one!!

 

[BentMikey]

Don't get yourself in a sweat over reflectives, and just use some decent modern lights. These will considerably out perform reflectives, and will work in situations where reflectives don't, such as when a driver is waiting at a side road and you're cycling along the main road.

 

[Maz]

Does anyone know if it's technically illegal to have the front light on flashing mode when there is no other front light on the bike?

 

[BentMikey]

I don't believe so, as flashing LED lights were made legal some time ago. OTOH the lighting regs are in a complete mess.

 

[Svendo]

Does anyone know if it's technically illegal to have the front light on flashing mode when there is no other front light on the bike?

No... and Yes! see here.
No it's not illegal but Yes, as it's very likely to not be BS (or Euro equivalent) approved.
Gist is that it is legal to have a flashing lamps (1-4Hz) since 2005, but the reality is there are very few BS approved lights, but again the enforcement of having approved lights is non-existent to minimal. You can have lots of lights but only one strictly needs to be approved.

I wonder if there are any examples of people having problems with Police or with Insurers over adequate but not BS approved lighting?

 

[siadwell]

No... and Yes! see here.
No it's not illegal but Yes, as it's very likely to not be BS (or Euro equivalent) approved.
Gist is that it is legal to have a flashing lamps (1-4Hz) since 2005, but the reality is there are very few BS approved lights, but again the enforcement of having approved lights is non-existent to minimal. You can have lots of lights but only one strictly needs to be approved.

I wonder if there are any examples of people having problems with Police or with Insurers over adequate but not BS approved lighting?

This issue came up a while ago and I found something on the internet from a lawyer that basically said that the law is intended to ensure that cyclists are adequately lit. If a cyclist was more than adequately lit, but their lighting did not conform to the details of the law, it would be unlikely that a court would hold it against them.

Insurance companies, on the other hand, are a different kettle of slippery fish.

I paraphrase from memory and IANAL!

 

[Maz]

No... and Yes!

Ironically...just like a flashing light!

 

[mattsr]

It seems odd that the law requires pedal reflectors to be fitted, but as far as I'm aware, pretty much every clipless pedal on the market does not have any. You'd think that either the law would be changed or manufacturers would be made to fit them. Otherwise it's all a bit pointless.....

 

[gaz]

Gaz,

PM replied to and I'm happy for the content to be copied across to this thread if you wish.

I won't bother posting the whole thing but instead sumarise the important bits, I may have forgotten something (i look at your reply over 2 hours ago) so please raise me on that if you so wish.

I asked G-Zero for the original photo so I can extract the camera settings when the photo was taken, this would allow me to replicate the image, and whilst the quality would be different, the light sensitivity, apeature and exposure time and the most important factors when taking photos, this in turn means that comparing photos from drifferent cameras on how light is reflected from a surface is in fact very easy to do across camera models and indeed brands.

Unfortunatly G-Zero no longer has the original file and as such I won't be able to get the settings used, so I am unable to replicate the same.

G-Zero raised a good point about limiting the vairiables, so using the same camera, same car, same jacket, in the same conditions. Essentially we should all meet up and do the experiment together, that way we won't need the camera :P

My basis for my original photo is based on my own personal experience as a road user, I've driven many miles in London at night around cyclists and from my own experience of reflectives and the lights on my car, I don't see anywhere near the same sort of results that you have got in your photo. And whilst my responding photo is not quite at what I would call real life results, I certainly wasn't and haven't seen what you posted.

If anyone choose to take further photos, then please do send me a copy of the original photo so I can look at the settings and replicate the photo.

 

[Alembicbassman]

Shimano make these to fit SPD, they also sell ones to fit SPD-SL road pedals too. Only reqiured when cycling at night.

 

[gaz]

I think most road users (and many on this thread) use the data provided by their eyes when driving in poor light. Drivers appreciate the use of reflective surfaces by non-drivers, for reasons I've aleady given.

We all admire your emprical approach Gaz, but those of us looking for cyclists through a windscreen, pitch night, fog and rain appreciate the added dimension offered by reflectives.

I'm sure camera settings are huge fun and make those long, winter evenings fly past, but they seem not to be the key issue on this forum when deciding about the merits or otherwise of reflectives.

I don't believe I said 'all reflectives are crap, don't ever use them.' Far from it. I use reflectives all over my body, and from my personal experience I think they are much better placed lower down on the body (for reasons I posted before)

 

[GrumpyGregry]

I too use my lights during the day and you are correct about those drivers that do not look, will not see you no matter what, however this type of driver is thankfully in the minority and the longer I am visible to them and from the greatest distance increases my chances of them eventually seeing me. There has to be a limit to how far someone can drive without looking and hopefully they will exit the road before they get anywhere near me.

(Anecdote alert) - A19 several years ago, I saw a motorist go past 3 traffic cars at a collision scene, lane closure, all with rear chevrons and rear red/blue flashing strobes illuminated, before crashing in to the back of the 4th car (prior to the lane being coned off).

The distance you refer too can be many hundreds of metres, and on rural roads or in town may well exceed the distance that you are from them when you might come into view, if they were looking.

If they look, do they see?

If they see, so they judge correctly?

If they judge correctly, do they then act appropriately?

By which time it is usually too late.

I have a similar anecdote from the M5, crested a hill to see a swarm of angry red lights and flashing hazard lights in front of me, performed a lovely emergency stop complete with cadence braking, no ABS you see, and slowed to walking pace safely short of the stationary vehicles. Then watched in horror as one, bang, two, crash, three, kerump, four, kaboom, cars shot past me and slammed into the back of the queue(s), one of which didn't even appear to slow down at all. My attention then went elsewhere as I was rammed myself. The car that then hit him a few seconds later was going sideways at the point of impact as it cannoned off and up the bank with the only damage being on the drivers side!

 

[Little yellow Brompton]

Shimano make these to fit SPD, they also sell ones to fit SPD-SL road pedals too. Only reqiured when cycling at night.

I have those fitted on one pedal of the Brompton ( Don't ask) I bought the pedals second hand and they cam with the platform fitted I wasn't aware that there were sold seperately... where?

 

[G-Zero]

I won't bother posting the whole thing but instead sumarise the important bits, I may have forgotten something (i look at your reply over 2 hours ago) so please raise me on that if you so wish.

Just for the record, here's the PM being referred to -

Hello Gaz,

The lure of the season's first decent snow proved too strong to resist and I've had a cycle, free long weekend playing with ice axe and crampons in Cumbria, thus the late reply.

The information you are asking for is not available and the only way I can think of to get it for you would be to retake the photos.

Had I known that the images were to be subjected to such such scrutiny, I would have amended my computer settings and held on to them for you, however my system is set to delete the images from the camera once they transfer across and similarly, the original files were deleted once I'd used an online facility to reduce the image size to something suitable for the CC forum, as they're not the type of photos that I would normally hang on to.

I do however have certain reservations that to truly recreate any images, you would need more than just the camera settings. ie using an identical camera, having the same light, visibility and weather conditions, the same reflective jacket, the same light source, etc etc.

To be perfectly honest, I'm a bit taken aback and disappointed that one's long experience of having used reflective clothing and reflective panels on vehicles and being able to see the actual effect that car headlights have on similarly attired colleagues and their vehicles, making them visible from much further afield, can be so easily dismissed by a small minority that have in all probability, never worked in such an environment.

Irrespective of what either of us is able to produce with a camera, I would prefer to stand alongside side you in a similar setting and see the same scene as you see; and be able to discuss exactly what we can or cannot see. To that end I make a genuine offer to you, that should you find yourself in the NE at any point, please contact me prior and we could set something up, before I treat you to pint of real ale.

G-​

 

[gaz]

Just for the record, here's the PM being referred to -

Hello Gaz,​

The lure of the season's first decent snow proved too strong to resist and I've had a cycle, free long weekend playing with ice axe and crampons in Cumbria, thus the late reply.​

The information you are asking for is not available and the only way I can think of to get it for you would be to retake the photos.​

Had I known that the images were to be subjected to such such scrutiny, I would have amended my computer settings and held on to them for you, however my system is set to delete the images from the camera once they transfer across and similarly, the original files were deleted once I'd used an online facility to reduce the image size to something suitable for the CC forum, as they're not the type of photos that I would normally hang on to.​

I do however have certain reservations that to truly recreate any images, you would need more than just the camera settings. ie using an identical camera, having the same light, visibility and weather conditions, the same reflective jacket, the same light source, etc etc.​

To be perfectly honest, I'm a bit taken aback and disappointed that one's long experience of having used reflective clothing and reflective panels on vehicles and being able to see the actual effect that car headlights have on similarly attired colleagues and their vehicles, making them visible from much further afield, can be so easily dismissed by a small minority that have in all probability, never worked in such an environment.​

Irrespective of what either of us is able to produce with a camera, I would prefer to stand alongside side you in a similar setting and see the same scene as you see; and be able to discuss exactly what we can or cannot see. To that end I make a genuine offer to you, that should you find yourself in the NE at any point, please contact me prior and we could set something up, before I treat you to pint of real ale.​

G-​

And the same to you if you are in London at time. Although we drink Thames Water down here :P