Risk assessment

[classic33]

However, it is also important to recognise that staff and visitors may choose to travel
by other forms of transport and indeed these opportunities should be encouraged
and maximised.

Taken from:
http://www.northwest.nhs.uk/document_uploads/Board_Papers/operating_arrangements.pdf

So they want to encourage you to cycle.

You asked at the start if anyone had a risk assessment done with regards to cycling & work. I was asked//told to attend one in an office & gave the answer of why in an office. Because thats where there done wasn't good enough, for me , I asked for the assessment to be carried out under actual conditions. This to reflect the true problem & therefore aid a more accurate & honest assessment. At this point all talk of the assessment was dropped, no-one willing to cycle with me.

 

[Davidc]

I'd be surprised if an employer can evade liability where an employee is using their own car while at work. Our H&S people have recently latched on to driving on duty as being, by a long chalk, our greatest risk. And not necessarily those on long distance work. The biggest danger is reckoned to arise with those told to get their ar*es to the short handed branch five miles down the road in time for daily appointamnts to start.

IIRC there was some case law involved, but beyond that it's too long ago and I don't remember.

I have a set of (required) assessments for working self employed. My highest assessed risk is driving. Beats using a ladder by miles, and I used published figures to work that one out! Using my bike for business (yes I do!) is lower than both, again using published figures.

 

[Jonathan M]

Are they still, at least, allowing you to ride to and from work?!

They cannot stop me, and I've made it crystal clear that on the days when i have to do the school run it will be by bike and I will attend for work by bike & go home by bike. After all, it is my own time that I travel too & from work, so they can have no say whatsoever about that. Besides, others ride to & from work, so if they start to want to control how I go about getting to & from work then that is becoming discriminatory isn't it?

Is anyone else allowed to cycle between sites, if so they are discriminating against you

Yes, others do cycle between sites (the C2W guy from Occy Health for one!), so this is one argument I intend to follow.

However, it is also important to recognise that staff and visitors may choose to travel
by other forms of transport and indeed these opportunities should be encouraged
and maximised.

Taken from:
http://www.northwest.nhs.uk/document_uploads/Board_Papers/operating_arrangements.pdf

So they want to encourage you to cycle.

Reading this document, I have a feeling that while the SHA supports its own staff members using alternative forms of transport, the document relates to the changes that occured within the SHA structure itself, and is not therefore guidance to be taken on by the PCTs & Trusts. What it does do is show that higher structures recognise the importance of ccyling as a mode of transport.

As far as I am aware, Merseyside NHS trust do have Paramedics on bikes.

I'm not too sure about this, Merseyside comes under the North West Ambulance NHS Trust, and although this area includes Manchester & Liverpool, the rest of the area is made up of small to medium sized towns or countryside, for want of a better term!

I do have an acquaintance who is a paramedic, he was involved in looking at the possibility of motorcycle response in the more urban areas, but I'm even unsure if this progressed. Will have a word with him and see what the situation is. [edit] Just checked NWAS website and they do list bicycle response units, so will follow up in more detail.

 

[XmisterIS]

They cannot stop me, and I've made it crystal clear that on the days when i have to do the school run it will be by bike and I will attend for work by bike & go home by bike. After all, it is my own time that I travel too & from work, so they can have no say whatsoever about that. Besides, others ride to & from work, so if they start to want to control how I go about getting to & from work then that is becoming discriminatory isn't it?

It beggars belief that they are even countenancing the idea of dictating to you how you should travel to and from work in your own time!

 

[Jonathan M]

It beggars belief that they are even countenancing the idea of dictating to you how you should travel to and from work in your own time!

If you knew the "well meaning" snitch, nothing would surprise you.......

 

[Jonathan M]

OK, the outcome of the meeting this morning. H&S guy declares himself to be a cyclist alongside the OH bloke, so that was one thing in my favour. Being a H&S guy complicated matters though, and he took it along the trust liability issue, and "felt" that while my licence is surrendered the trust would consider that to be the standard; once I have been seizure free for 12 months (implication; resumed my driving status) then I can cycle on trust business. I felt this wasn't a fair comment; lets face it, driving with a seizure disorder isn't allowed for 12 months post seizure not soley from the driver safety point of view, but for the safety of other road users, and expressed this quite clearly.
It was established that others cycle between sites on work business as well, so it was fairly & squarely my health needs that were making people twitchy, and that as I'd volunteered cycling as a mode of transport alongside using hospital funded taxis & colleagues giving me a lift everywhere, did the trust actually have liability anyway?

Two possible solutions then:
Get a letter from my consultant neurologist stating that he is happy for me to cycle & that this would include on work related journeys.

Me to sign a disclaimer absolving the trust of any liability if I am involved in an accident, and H&S seemed quite surprised that I would be prepared to do this (it was my suggestion and i don't think they had even considered that someone would be prepared to do this)!

So I'll ring the secretary of my neuro consultant tomorrow and explain the situation, and ask nicely would he be prepared to supply a "fit to cycle" letter. He's a top bloke, really nice guy, and follows a principle of "don't let things stop you doing what you want".

 

[garrilla]

Hopefully that will resolve it for you.

What confuses me about their willingness for you to waive your rights is that it doesn't change their liability towards any 3rd parties... Anyway, don't tell them that

 

[wafflycat]

Best of luck.

 

[HJ]

the fecking elf & safety fairies caught up with me today

I've recently been diagnosed with a medical condition that was diagnosed after a seizure, so driving licence surrendered for 12 months. I've started using the bike more to get son to school, and for me to then get into work. My job can include some off site stuff (I'm a nurse in an NHS trust but my jobs include some community based work) and while my employers have said that I'm able to use hospital financed taxis I've also expressed willingness to use the bike on some of the work closer to the main site - anything within 5 miles can be done as easily with the bike as with 4 wheeled transport. public transport is an option, but timings & locations of where I need to be are not always suitable for public transport.

But today my occupational health dept, who I'm under on a phased return to work programme, advised me that due to concerns about the Trusts liability in me using the bike on trust business, that until a risk assessment is done i am not to use the bike on work business. B@stard. Particularly as the concerns were raised by a "worried" colleague, who passed her thoughts onto management without talking to me first


So has anyone else been in such a postion, if so do you have a copy of your risk assessment that i could see. I'm slightly concerned that the elf & safety fairy involved (who is about 17 stone BTW) will be looking at things from a point of view of "how can we stop this man cycling", rather than a constructive "how can this man use his bike safely on work business".

Get a trike, then see if they can think of a way of stopping you...

 

[classic33]

OK, the outcome of the meeting this morning. H&S guy declares himself to be a cyclist alongside the OH bloke, so that was one thing in my favour. Being a H&S guy complicated matters though, and he took it along the trust liability issue, and "felt" that while my licence is surrendered the trust would consider that to be the standard; once I have been seizure free for 12 months (implication; resumed my driving status) then I can cycle on trust business. I felt this wasn't a fair comment; lets face it, driving with a seizure disorder isn't allowed for 12 months post seizure not soley from the driver safety point of view, but for the safety of other road users, and expressed this quite clearly.
It was established that others cycle between sites on work business as well, so it was fairly & squarely my health needs that were making people twitchy, and that as I'd volunteered cycling as a mode of transport alongside using hospital funded taxis & colleagues giving me a lift everywhere, did the trust actually have liability anyway?
QUOTE]

Sorry for the H&S fairy. If others are allowed to cycle on work related journeys then that is discrimination

Disabilty Discrimination Act 1995, "Part II Section 4, Sub-section 2, Parts a & d.
It is unlawful for an an employer to discriminate against a disabled person whom he employs
a) in the terms of employment he affords him.
d) by dismissing him, or subjecting him to any other detriment.

Also Part II Section 5, Sub-section 1, Part a.
For the purpose of this part, an employer discriminates against a disabled person if--
a) For a reason which relates to the disabled persons disability, he treats them less favourably than he treats or would treat others to whom that reason does not or would not apply; and
he cannot show that the treatment is justified."

I take it you asked for any assessment to be done under actual conditions, and not in an office. Whether the assessor cycles or not.

There is no actual requirement for a driving licence to be held by the person cycling. So the fact that they want you to be in possession of your licence again before considering you fit to cycle is going the wrong way. What would happen if after the twelve months you didn't feel like applying for your licence?

 

[Nortones2]

It may well be that the OP has a lower risk level to 3rd parties a) because NOT driving a car because the OP is aware of the issues, and (I presume) under treatment c) has taken appropriate steps to monitor health. Did the H&S guy consider the Trust liability for employees with undiagnosed health issues? Have other staff including 17 stoner had assessment for driving on Trust business? Its extraordinary how some assume they can assess risk on the basis of one aspect.

 

[Phil Edwards]

Hi Jonathan,

Very intersting situation. You have had some interesting response to this, probably the most focused is from Andy. I am a senior manager in the NHS, but also a retired Police Officer. Contrary to some of the suggestions above the employer does have a duty of care to you during your journey to and from work. I am aware that your union will provide you with litigation support in the event of an incident occuring during this journey. Equally an employee such as NHS, with the requirement for staff to work extended hours has to take note of journey homes following extended tours of duty. This falls under European legislation regarding the limit of time one can ask an employee to work. etc

In your circumstances it is right and proper that a risk assessment is carried out by your employer and I entirly agree with Andy as to content. One of the identified risks surrounds the DVLA requirement for you to surrender your drivers licence, the whole essence of this is based around the fact of you possibly experiencing another seizure and the likelihood of an accident. The same reasoning will probably be used by your employer and the consequences of you falling ill when riding could also result in other road users becomming involved by taking evasive action. You must be very careful here as if an incident does occur which causes another to sustain an injury or worse you could find yourself being litigated against. My advice, whilst I know is not welcome is to either not ride or at the very least get yourself some legal protection insurance. Try British Cycling, although I am sure others here will direct you to a suitable provider.
Take care and look after yourself.

Phil

 

[classic33]

Hi Jonathan,

Very intersting situation. You have had some interesting response to this, probably the most focused is from Andy. I am a senior manager in the NHS, but also a retired Police Officer. Contrary to some of the suggestions above the employer does have a duty of care to you during your journey to and from work. I am aware that your union will provide you with litigation support in the event of an incident occuring during this journey. Equally an employee such as NHS, with the requirement for staff to work extended hours has to take note of journey homes following extended tours of duty. This falls under European legislation regarding the limit of time one can ask an employee to work. etc

In your circumstances it is right and proper that a risk assessment is carried out by your employer and I entirly agree with Andy as to content. One of the identified risks surrounds the DVLA requirement for you to surrender your drivers licence, the whole essence of this is based around the fact of you possibly experiencing another seizure and the likelihood of an accident. The same reasoning will probably be used by your employer and the consequences of you falling ill when riding could also result in other road users becomming involved by taking evasive action. You must be very careful here as if an incident does occur which causes another to sustain an injury or worse you could find yourself being litigated against. My advice, whilst I know is not welcome is to either not ride or at the very least get yourself some legal protection insurance. Try British Cycling, although I am sure others here will direct you to a suitable provider.
Take care and look after yourself.

Phil

Speaking as a person born with, brought up with & expect to die with it(no cure in sight nor magic wands to make it go away), epilepsy. Who at one stage was cycling over 1000 miles a month to & from work never once was the employer able to raise the question of epilepsy making it unsafe to cycle to work. "Concern" raised following being hit whilst cycling home, but only on the distance that would soon be travelled each trip.

See http://www.cyclechat.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=45316

Even then only after "concerns" raised by a "well intentioned person" for my safety cycling to & from work. Why because they were unable to dictate how I travelled to & from work, because they were not paying me to travel to work only whilst at work! They knew this, I knew this. How many posting on here actually get paid soley for travelling to work by their employer, expeses aside?

You have the same chance of suffering a seizure as the OP. I have a greater chance than either of you or the OP of a seizure. What I won't let it do is let it, epilepsy, dictate what I do, nor will I let some-one else say what they feel I should do because of it. Without good reason.

As a manager you will be aware that it is covered by the DDA 1995 & the consequences of trying to force some-one to stop doing something you don't like them doing.

 

[Jonathan M]

Interesting points again raised by the members of CC.

Nortones2 the whole issue has arisen simply because of the brain tumour diagnosis & risk of subsequent seizures. I am on treatment (epilim chrono & a decreasing dose of pheytoin) and under hospital specialist follow up from the epilepsey point of view & from the brain tumour point of view (neurologist & neurosurgeon). I am aware of the problem as you say, but I honestly cannot say that I would experience an "aura" pre-seizure, as the seizures at diagnosis occured whilst asleep.

Phil Edwards, thanks some detailed information here. I'm no-longer a shift worker in the NHS, I'm a specialist nurse, so extended shifts are soemthing that I do not do, and equally having done some 50 hour weeks in the run up to diagnosis (contracted 37.5 hours) then i do not intend for my work:life balance to return back to that - several reasons, life changing experience etc, but also the fact that if I make a mistake it would come under very close scrutiny, and if I was deemed to be operating outside my contracted hours and therefore outside Trust liability, I have a feeling that they'd be quick to go for disciplinary action. (My working to contracted hours is another bone of contention with my well meaning colleague, but let us not go there at all!). I appreciate the viewpoint that third parties could become involved or injured if I had a seizure, and currently do not have any form of insurance whilst cycling but have been meaning to acquire some as soon as possible - I will do it today.

Classic33 You've hit the nail on the head here mate, if I'm brutal I have as much chance of the brain tumour killing me in the next 10 years as I do being killed on a bike! Seizures & epilesey go hand in hand, so if I sit and wait for a seizure to happen, it could happend, today, tommorrow, next week, next month, next year. They're likely to increase in frequency as & when the tumour continues to grow, which should be a long time off, but does that mean that as a 39 year old I should become one with the sofa and live in a risk free world waiting for a heart attack to see me off? You probably work along the same lines as I do.
I've not gone along the DDA lines yet, that may need to be held in reserve for the future, I'll seek the support of my neuro consultant first (and go to BC or the CTC now and get some cycling insurance!)


Edit: British Cycling everyday membership just done for me (£24.00), Josh has got junior Silver membership including race licence (!) for £8.00!!!!

 

[Nortones2]

Phil. Re "Contrary to some of the suggestions above the employer does have a duty of care to you during your journey to and from work. " How so? SFAIK, travelling to work is not "work", and the traveller is not employed in that time. Circumstances such as out of hours attendance, and obviously travelling in the course of work, are in the course of employment, certainly.