RLJ'ers

[gambatte]

As a cyclist and someone who's been knocked over by a cyclist ignoring a red light at a pedestrian crossing - red lights aren't advisory for cars, lorries or bikes.

 

[BentMikey]

I made this RLJer squirm and hang his head in shame:

View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TUKXfcBbG3E


So satisfying!!

 

[Howard]

I made this RLJer squirm and hang his head in shame:

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=TUKXfcBbG3E

So satisfying!!

I wonder he's squirming because he's caught on camera wearing his best hipster gear on what is quite clearly a women's bike, rather than some shiny fixed lo-pro with obligatory riser bars and neon grips

 

[JamesAC]

At every red light I stopped at down Stratford High Street this morning, I was "whooshed" by rlj cyclists. They had no regard for any other road user whatsoever.

Problem is, I doubt that many of them read this forum. They were either POB's, or had so much lycra and cool gear that anything like cycle chat was probably beneath them.

 

[I like Skol]

I knew my comments were going to be controversial and while I could simply have kept quiet and said nothing or joined the crowd in tutting, shaking my head and muttering comments like “only an idiot goes through a red light” I have no problem with admitting how I ride and defending my actions with reasoned argument.


Is what I do legal? No

Is it annoying to other road users? Probably, but only the ones that don’t/can’t think for themselves

Am I putting myself or others in increased danger? No

Almost got broadsided by a car this morning RLJ'ing. There was no room for doubt - I could see his lights on red and mine had been on green for a good 3-4 seconds. I'd already checked once for "amber gamblers" and had just set off

Clearly from the incident described by SquareDaff someone was completely in the wrong and it sounds as though the driver mentioned is one of those ‘that don’t give a F**K’. SquareDaff’s experience bears no relation to the description I gave of my RLJ’ing policy

I often see cars dangerously 'filtering' (In I like Skols terms), occasionally the odd darwin award candidate cyclist too.

Nothing dangerous about what I described but I am sure you do see motorists (not cars, remember they don’t drive themselves) and cyclists going through red lights dangerously and illegally. Do not confuse the two, illegal is not necessarily dangerous. You are right though, there are more than enough ‘Darwin Award candidates’ around as motorists, cyclists and pedestrians, the clue is in the title though and they are not expected to live as long as the fitter, cleverer and more adaptable amongst us.

I think many drivers who do it will use the 'well cyclists always do it and get away with it, why not me.' argument to justify their actions.

Again, these would be stupid people. There are many potentially fatal activities, pastimes and occupations that I would not attempt just because I have seen someone else do it and make it look easy.

Are you suggesting that a cyclist can safely jump a red light, but a car can't?

Anyone that thinks so is either stupid or deluding themselves.

Of course a car can be driven past a red light as safely as a bike can be ridden past. Do not confuse legality with safety and illegality with danger. The act of passing the red light is not in itself the danger, it is not considering other unexpecting road users that create the danger.


Let’s describe a few hypothetical scenarios

1, A motorist approaches a crossroads with traffic lights on a quiet day. They know the light sequence well and as their light has just turned red they know they have quite a few minutes to wait while all the other directions are given their turn. They can see clearly in all directions that there is no one approaching so they decide to cautiously drive through the red light and continue their journey rather than sit with the engine idling for 3 or 4 minutes while the lights give priority to vehicles that aren’t there. Is this dangerous?



2, A cyclist is riding home from work and filters past a queue of vehicles waiting at a red light during the busy rush hour. When he/she gets to the front of the queue they finds that by pure chance there is no traffic passing the lights in the other directions so rather than wait and join the rush to get away that will occur when the lights change to green he/she decides to set off and take advantage of the vehicle free space and time to navigate the complex junction with all its islands and pinch points. Who has been put in danger here?



3, A person is running for a bus but has to negotiate a busy pedestrian crossing at a junction to get to the bus stop of the approaching bus. Rather than press the button for the pedestrian crossing and wait for all the traffic to stop the person has a quick look and decides no one is coming their way so runs across the road. A vehicle comes around the corner having passed a green light only to be confronted by a pedestrian in the road and has to brake sharply to avoid running them down. Is this illegal?



What does any of this prove? Not a lot really. Jumping/passing a red traffic light can be dangerous if not done with care and attention. Passing a red light is illegal, no one is arguing with that. People risk their lives in plenty of ways that are legal but this doesn’t draw much if any comment from the pedants that mutter through gritted teeth “they shouldn’t do that, they’re not allowed” like RLJ’ing does.



I am not condoning RLJ’ing but I am happy with my own actions and I accept responsibility for them. I do not have a problem with cyclists that jump red lights providing they do it carefully with consideration for all other road users and are prepared to accept the consequences should they be caught or if it goes wrong.

 

[BentMikey]

Can't be bothered to read that much bumf when it's so obviously unjustifiable.

 

[mumbo jumbo]

Got an outrageous RLJ on cam this evening. Can't make out the licence plate unfortunately.

View: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVi6LIBOiPE

 

[2Loose]

@I like Skol.

Kids and inexperienced drivers learn by example. You do set a bad one, but although I am sure that you don't mean to encourage others to do the things you do, less experienced riders and drivers will try and emulate your actions. Some drivers will stereotype all cyclists and treat them with disdain because of this. Some people will seriously believe that cyclists can legally do this - after all, so many people can't all be breaking the law, can they? Some of them will actually check the HC for themselves.

For example, how many times have you seen\heard\read that 'cyclists must stay in the gutter\on the path'? There is not a shred of truth in it, but many people do really believe it - drivers and cyclists alike. They are not (often) stupid, they have no reason to disbelieve what they have heard so they pass it on. Others then believe the same thing and so it continues.

What you do is breaking the law and whether you like it or not, encourages bad road behavior in others.

 

[Dan B]

Kids and inexperienced drivers learn by example. You do set a bad one, but although I am sure that you don't mean to encourage others to do the things you do, less experienced riders and drivers will try and emulate your actions.

Thanks for a serious and well-reasoned post. It's a strong argument (in fact, it's the strongest argument I've yet seen for obeying lights even when it's safe to jump them) but it's not 100% You could make the same monkey-see-money-do argument against filtering in traffic, for example: if you go through a gap and some less experienced rider comes a cropper following you, should you feel culpable for it?

 

[I like Skol]

I am not condoning RLJ’ing but I am happy with my own actions and I accept responsibility for them.

Can't be bothered to read that much bumf when it's so obviously unjustifiable.

OK....... so anybody elses view/opinion that differs from yours is obviously wrong and you cannot possibly consider it or read it?

You could make the same monkey-see-money-do argument against filtering in traffic, for example: if you go through a gap and some less experienced rider comes a cropper following you, should you feel culpable for it?

I haven't copied anybody elses riding habits. I have developed my own technique/style through a lifetime of real experience and observation. I have been riding on the public roads since the age of 5 and by the age of 8 or 9 I was free to roam at will and I am not the rider that gets beeped, surprises other road users or has near misses/scrapes. Other than an incident as a 6 yr old when I ran across a road without looking (the driver walked me home and told me mum! like you could do in the late 70's without getting a mouthful of abuse) I have a good record as a pedestrian/cyclist. I have driven for a living from 1992 to 2007 covering between 40-50k most years, I drive a 4x4 off-road competitively, I am a parent, a pedestrian and a cyclist. How much experience and different view points do I need to make up my own mind? I acknowledge I am breaking the law and should I be caught I will accept my punishment without bleating about the unfairness of it all or trying to weasle out with lame excuses but I know it would have to be a slow day or a serious incident for a police officer to bother booking me for such a technicality.

DanB, you could have a good point though. Whatever happened to assessing a risk for yourself? I don't know how old you are but as a child in the late 70's and early 80's I would class myself as part of the last generation that had to learn how to look after themselves. Kids today are wrapped up in cotton wool by the Nanny State (You MUST wear a helmet to cycle, you may not play conkers incase a fragment flies off in your direction, you have to be driven to school incase you are run over/abducted/bullied by your classmates). I decide for myself if I am happy to do something. I do not do things just because others do it and I don't not do things because I am told not to but you know what, that's alright because if it all goes wrong who's to blame? Me, no-one else (unless some kn*b in a 2 ton car flies through a red light without even looking and wipes me out!!!) .

 

[steveinnorthants]

"Filtering" is what I do on my motorcycle, which I only undertake at low speeds or when stationary between 2 rows of vehicles, where road width permits. It is also what cyclists do under similar circumstances, either on the offside, or, the nearside (hopefully not taking risks where HGVs etc are concerned). It is not illegal but should obviously only been undertaken with great care and when safe to do so.

"Filtering" at red lights as an earlier post describes is merely RLJing - no better than the drivers jumping the red lights. That is an illegal practice.

I am surprised that some posts seems to imply this is entirely acceptable and defenceable, whilst at the same time bemoaning a driver doing EXACTLY the same!

Sorry to be controversial but we cannot adopt such a "holier than thou" approach and expect to have our understandable concerns about bad driving heard by the public!

 

[Tommi]

Whatever happened to assessing a risk for yourself?

As I found out in the recent Guardian thread I think you're not supposed to think for yourself; if it's illegal it's always wrong, if it's legal it's always right, now stop thinking.

I made a similar argument myself; I might consider breaking the letter of the law a viable option if it causes no concern to others and has notable advantage. Not doing it lightly.

The point about others copying bad habits is the best argument I've heard so far. But even copying good habits requires you to copy the underlying judgement call that make them good, legal manoeuvres can still be fatal if you failed to judge the situation correctly.

 

[GrasB]

There's one set of traffic lights I go through that in the early morning are an absolute pita, 95% of the time I'll have a green light if there's a car approaching from the side road I'll have to jam the brakes on 2 out 3 to avoid being taken out... it's not that I'm a cyclist either. I've seen cars having to do emergency stops to avoid collisions there.

 

[martint235]

OK....... so anybody elses view/opinion that differs from yours is obviously wrong and you cannot possibly consider it or read it?

I acknowledge I am breaking the law and should I be caught I will accept my punishment without bleating about the unfairness of it all or trying to weasle out with lame excuses but I know it would have to be a slow day or a serious incident for a police officer to bother booking me for such a technicality.

On my commute and around work, thankfully the police have started taking this issue seriously due to the sheer number of cyclists who believe the law does not apply to them. In other RLJ threads, I'm afraid there is a lot of bleating along the lines of "don't they have real criminals to catch? I was only doing 5/15/25 mph when I went through the light"

The argument about whether it is safe or not is irelevant really, it's illegal. It's safe for me to walk down the street with a loaded shotgun or a large hunting knife. I'm not actually going to put anyone at risk by doing so but I would raise other people's perception of risk and I would be breaking the law.

"Filtering" is what I do on my motorcycle, which I only undertake at low speeds or when stationary between 2 rows of vehicles, where road width permits. It is also what cyclists do under similar circumstances, either on the offside, or, the nearside (hopefully not taking risks where HGVs etc are concerned). It is not illegal but should obviously only been undertaken with great care and when safe to do so.

"Filtering" at red lights as an earlier post describes is merely RLJing - no better than the drivers jumping the red lights. That is an illegal practice.

I am surprised that some posts seems to imply this is entirely acceptable and defenceable, whilst at the same time bemoaning a driver doing EXACTLY the same!

Sorry to be controversial but we cannot adopt such a "holier than thou" approach and expect to have our understandable concerns about bad driving heard by the public!

+1. We have to share roadspace with car drivers, lorry drivers etc, if we antagonise them by seeming to break the law at will we will always tend to come off worst in the long run.

 

[pshore]

+1 If we want to be treated the same as other road users then we have to behave the same.

I know you said this in the context of RLJ, but in a wider context I do NOT want to be treated the same as other road users. It is pretty clear that cyclists and pedestrians cause far less harm than the motorcar, and are also far more vulnerable too so should be treated accordingly.

Re the RLJ: I see safe and considerate RLJ by cyclists at some junctions. In particular, the example I am thinking of is a cross roads with a 4 way pedestrian phase. In four years I have seen just one idiot cyclist scare the pedestrians. Everyday there are pedestrians and cyclists all moving through the junction without fear of the motorcar or each other.

I am not condoning RLJ, I am just pointing out that it is not all like the famous YouTube vid of the cycle courier race.