Routes - but better than Sustrans

[HobbesOnTour]

Maybe this chap's books? https://eoscycling.com

No that's not him.
It was a Dutch guy and he did long distance routes in Spain, Italy & Germany amongst others.
There's actually quite a body of bike touring literature in Dutch

 

[I like Skol]

Having very skim read the thread I feel this is all about the six P's!....

Proper Preparation Prevents Piss Poor Performance!

Or the alternative phrase, fail to prepare then prepare to fail!

All the info you need is out there. You just need to do some research.

 

[Solocle]

Having very skim read the thread I feel this is all about the six P's!....

Proper Preparation Prevents Piss Poor Performance!

Or the alternative phrase, fail to prepare then prepare to fail!

All the info you need is out there. You just need to do some research.

I've done various levels of preparation for various rides. For LEJOG, I used the Strava route planner, consulted about the Cornwall and Devon leg. Loaded the route on GPS, and took a set of OS maps with me. I actually made an impromptu deviation from my route in Cornwall... off the top of my head. It was onto the A30 where I hadn't been planning that (run in to Launceston), but I knew even that there was a back road to bail onto. It's just my planned back road had a nice smattering of gravel and I was in no mood for that

Whereas the last >100 mile ride I did was to London. Blast along the A30. I had my GPS, but no route loaded, no maps. I just followed my nose and road signs, consulting with the map at Salisbury cathedral and Popham.

Local authorities are risk-averse, largely because people sue at the drop of a hat these days. I was once involved in a signposted route project where the local authority refused to countenance a cycle route going north-south across this junction - https://goo.gl/maps/aztYr57n4oZDZCDz5 - because they thought the crossing was too dangerous. If they're not happy with that, they are never going to agree to sign the A30 from Shaftesbury to Salisbury as a cycle route.

I think this contradicts that just a little...

 

[HobbesOnTour]

All the info you need is out there. You just need to do some research.

There's nothing to disagree with there.
However, does the research stop when finding an existing route or extend to creating a personalised route?
For me, that's the nub of the issue.

By the way, in certain circumstances there's an awful lot to be said for pish poor planning

I think this contradicts that just a little...

Can I ask what what experience or contacts you have to see your plan through to the end?
I can't imagine the hurdles to be overcome but perhaps you are already aware and ready.
Apologies if I should know but I've rarely come across you on here.

 

[Jameshow]

There's nothing to disagree with there.
However, does the research stop when finding an existing route or extend to creating a personalised route?
For me, that's the nub of the issue.

By the way, in certain circumstances there's an awful lot to be said for pish poor planning


Can I ask what what experience or contacts you have to see your plan through to the end?
I can't imagine the hurdles to be overcome but perhaps you are already aware and ready.
Apologies if I should know but I've rarely come across you on here.

I think he was just putting it out there rather than any hard and fast plans.

To me a fixed route would only be of interest it if it were a race, or I was very time constrained like doing lejog in 8 days.

Also depends on the bike your riding, riding a race bike on a stop-start route just feels wrong your always loosing momentum.

However in a hybrid or tourer it's the essence of the journey to stop and take pictures etc

 

[Richard Fairhurst]

I think this contradicts that just a little...

Sure, I'm not going to disagree that there aren't oldish signs in some places - that one's present in 2009 Streetview. Similarly I remember a county council signed route installed about four years ago in Gloucestershire along some rat-run roads. (GCC asked Sustrans whether they wanted it to be part of the NCN, and Sustrans asked me for an opinion as someone who knows the local roads. My response was pretty much "lol wut no".)

But things have changed. LTN 1/20 is very clear on what infrastructure is required for cycle provision above a certain AADT and speed limit. You're asking for a national network of signed routes, actively recommended for cyclists, including roads with comparatively high AADTs and (mostly) NSL, without any infrastructure interventions.

A national network is only going to happen with DfT/Active Travel England approval. DfT & ATE are not going to countenance a new national network that flies in the face of LTN 1/20's requirements. If you're lucky, you might find a couple of rural county councils where the engineers aren't up with the latest guidance and are happy to approve isolated schemes. Or you might occasionally find some willingness to signpost alternative routes to prevent people taking lethal dual carriageways - there was talk about signage in Telford to dissuade LEJOGers from using the A442 though I don't think it ever happened. But "a network of long distance touring routes... signed in a fixed manner" isn't going to happen.

 

[HobbesOnTour]

To me a fixed route would only be of interest it if it were a race

Well, riding a race on a route that's not the race route would be an interesting approach

I was very time constrained like doing lejog in 8 days.

I can understand that and "long distance bike tour" is a very wide umbrella. Choosing an existing route that is a known quantity is useful for that kind of situation. Limiting ascent is another. Or supplies through open space is another.

My musings, however are more along the way of "I have X time where will I go?" versus "I want to go to Y but I only have X time. How do I do that?"
It seems to be a motivational difference.

A part of me wonders if it's part of the psyche of a cyclist (or some cyclists) to seek comfort or safety (be that physical safety or in the sense of security of services) in the tried and tested. That safety/security is the primary objective and persona goals (where I want to go) secondary?

Also depends on the bike your riding, riding a race bike on a stop-start route just feels wrong your always loosing momentum.

However in a hybrid or tourer it's the essence of the journey to stop and take pictures etc

That's an interesting approach and one that is very alien to me.
Many things can "feel" wrong. Is that the bike or is that us?
I can understand that a road bike can't go the places other bikes can go and that certain bikes can't go there as fast as a road bike but if my bike can do something but I don't avail of that that's on me - not the bike.

I can't help but wonder if a similar concept is what puts some people off cycling (or inspires animosity in non cyclists)?, namely the some people think (or feel) they need to wear certain gear to be a "proper" cyclist and will be judged for their lack of proper attire?

Again, it's a personal/motivational/philosophical approach and is different within us all and can even change from day to day.

I'm not trying to suggest that one way is superior to another I'm trying to understand the different approaches and motivations.

 

[Alex321]

But "a network of long distance touring routes... signed in a fixed manner" isn't going to happen.

Isn't that what the NCN supposedly is?

It has surprised me a little just how many NCN signs/routes there are around South Wales.

 

[Richard Fairhurst]

The NCN is many things to many people! But as @Solocle says it isn't the sort of route he likes, and even with lower traffic, I think it's fair to say upcoming years are unlikely to see many new long-distance, on-road touring routes like the Pennine Cycleway (NCN 68) or Lon Las Cymru (NCN 8).

 

[youngoldbloke]

I think Hobbes has hit the nail on the head - ask 10 different cyclists and you'll get 12 different answers. There's a lot in your example route that I personally wouldn't consider "easily passable" or "a pleasant route". That's not to say I'm right and you're wrong, or vice versa. But it's not the sort of cycling I like to do.

Local authorities are risk-averse, largely because people sue at the drop of a hat these days. I was once involved in a signposted route project where the local authority refused to countenance a cycle route going north-south across this junction - https://goo.gl/maps/aztYr57n4oZDZCDz5 - because they thought the crossing was too dangerous. If they're not happy with that, they are never going to agree to sign the A30 from Shaftesbury to Salisbury as a cycle route.

I like cycle.travel's style of routes which is why I built it like that! I'm sure it'll be too winding and indirect for you. That's fine. There are other route-planners available with different takes, or you can customise your own preferences using something like brouter.de. Just get a battery backup for your phone, or an app that doesn't gobble battery, or a Garmin with good battery life (an Edge 530 will do 20 hours happily) - it's a solved problem.

I know that crossing well, in fact if you actually have the nerve to want to cycle to the north of that village you have to cross the A420, and to the east and west you have no real choice other than use that main road, which to the west will bring you to the A46, running north and south - and that really isn't a safe road to ride on!

 

[cougie uk]

Theres some really interesting Sustrans routes by me - from a pothole ridden stretch that wouldn't look out of place in a war film to a hill in north wales that is so steep and has such a bad road surface that you need to be an expert to get up it. Google Streetview is your friend when planning routes I think.

 

[classic33]

What did folk use before streetview came along?

Are we loosing the means of basic navigation, and on top of that the ability to read a map and transfer that information to the ground. Or are they just falling out of favour.

 

[HobbesOnTour]

What did folk use before streetview came along?

One thing to remember is that roads are an awful lot busier now than before.
Cars are bigger and faster.
There were a lot more slower moving vehicles, some of them not motorised at all so drivers dealt with that more often and journey times had delays built in.
And I can't say whether bikes were more common but I'd wager that a lot of drivers had ridden bikes as adults. I believe thats an important factor in places like NL where practically everyone who drives also rides a bike.

It all adds up to the roads being more dangerous or perceived to be more dangerous.
Street view can be a very useful tool to asses risk.

Are we loosing the means of basic navigation,

Yes.
Along with handwriting.
And an ability to exchange views in a civil manner.

 

[Mike_P]

What did folk use before streetview came along?

Are we loosing the means of basic navigation, and on top of that the ability to read a map and transfer that information to the ground. Or are they just falling out of favour.

Are they not all complementary. A map is useful for seeking/avoiding steep climbs although I would prefer some more useful indication as some single chevrons, due to the range of gradients covered, on the OS I can get up and others are a case of shanks pony.

Streetview is useful for checking out road junction layouts before encountered.

 

[cougie uk]

What did folk use before streetview came along?

Are we loosing the means of basic navigation, and on top of that the ability to read a map and transfer that information to the ground. Or are they just falling out of favour.

Much as I love maps - street view will show you road layout, surface and give an indication of traffic levels.

I bet some people complained about new fangled maps back in the day.