Rugby at school level

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Jimidh

Veteran
Location
Midlothian
Well not to me it doesn't, either way. Rugby is barging people out of the way to win, and boxing is fighting. Boys, as well as society in general, deserve better.
Rugby isn’t about barging people out the way to win.

Rugby is about working together as a team to get the call across the try line.

One of the reasons there aren’t prima donnas in Rugby is that you can’t achieve much without great team work.

Contact sports aren’t for everyone but lots of kids love them and they mostly grow up to be healthy well adjusted kids.
 
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srw

It's a bit more complicated than that...
or any other team sport played at school
Or, indeed, of many other activities - choral singing, orchestral playing, scouts and guides, voluntary service. And I'm not entirely convinced that learning "to respect authority, abide by rules and to take pride in the institutions they represent" is an unalloyed good - unless it's also accompanied by an appreciation that sometimes those things lead to a very ugly place.
 

GrumpyGregry

Here for rides.
I played rugby at a reasonable standard as a kid (county and regional) but gave up when I was 19 after a season where I suffered three concussions. This was back in the '80s so the last knockings of amateurism, but there certainly wasn't any concern about the short or long term effects of head injuries. The choice to stop was all my own - nobody would have objected if I'd have carried on. Injuries of any kind were treated as a badge of honour and an inevitable part of the game, which looking back I resent as it left me with some longer term damage. It also explains why I'm such a handsome cove. :B):crazy:

From a friend who's son plays rugby now, the RFL seems to make the right noises about protections for kids, but that doesn't always seem to translate fully into the actions of coaches or the behaviour of kids on the pitch.

Apologies if this has been mentioned upthread because I've only been dipping in and out, but the NFL ('merkin footy) has been going litigation-crazy over that last couple of years over the long term lack of safeguarding for concussion injuries.
My playing career ended with a brain injury. But I the only thing I regret is that I didn't play more and longer. For reasons I have explained here before, as a kid from a shite estate in a new town "rugby made me", along with tlh.

Yet I agree with every word of this

That's not my point. Girls do play rugby if they want to, and learn to box. It's the idea that the way to improve any child's self-confidence is to make them play rough at school that is so spurious. As you said yourself, there are many and better ways. If adults choose to play rough sprts or fight each other, that's up to them, but to suggest, as several have, that making boys at school do these things is to prepare them for the real world (which girls also inhabit) and to somehow 'make men of them' is damaging and deeply suspect.
 
True of grass roots rugby too, though the most shocking view stuff tends to come from CTP (crazy touchline parents) at the 'better' sort of rugby club ime. On pitch excesses do often get called out as "soccer values" mind.
That's a shame, not a complete surprise but nevertheless a shame. My experience of such parents is that it's their kids who normally jack it in at the first opportunity. They may start well but their naked aggression is soon outflanked by kids who develop skills. I watched this happen in football at least. One coach ran a team more or less with the aim to get his son playing for a top club. He failed, badly. He also lost the team management after punching a parent after an altercation when he sent out a letter saying he wasn't gonna play the shoot kids (as he saw them). Funnily enough, the shoot kids went on to form the nucleaus of the cup winning team and his son played a bit part as a substitute. My son was one of the 'shoot' kids. I think that episode taught him more about human nature than I could have ever hoped to have instilled in any talk.
 

GrumpyGregry

Here for rides.
Rugby isn’t about barging people out the way to win.

Rugby is about working together as a team to get the call across the try line..
About working together with a disparate group of people with utterly different skillsets, and, in the case of the backs, varying attitudes to personal risk, to achieve a common goal within an agreed, but often counter-intuitive, framework.
 

nickyboy

Norven Mankey
Or, indeed, of many other activities - choral singing, orchestral playing, scouts and guides, voluntary service. And I'm not entirely convinced that learning "to respect authority, abide by rules and to take pride in the institutions they represent" is an unalloyed good - unless it's also accompanied by an appreciation that sometimes those things lead to a very ugly place.

Yup, any group activity where things are achieved through cooperation and teamwork. Rugby is just a nice example because you can be the most skilful rugby player around but unless you can work as part of a team you're going to lose

I get your point about respect for authority and it can tip too far into unquestioning obedience of course. But on balance I think better than having people who don't respect authority, don't abide by rules and don't take pride in the institutions they represent
 

GrumpyGregry

Here for rides.
Were one to go and see a school rugby game you would see very little "unnecessary roughness", a lot of polite behavior between opposing teams, a lot of sportsmanship and a bunch of kids after the game getting along famously
Not universally true, unfortunately, ime as an (ex) ref. The kids having been let down by the so-called responsible adults.
 

lazybloke

Ginger biscuits and cheddar
Location
Leafy Surrey
My son recently started at secondary , we had to supply a gum shield for rugby.

I'm sure it will protect him from concussion.
 

GrumpyGregry

Here for rides.
My son recently started at secondary , we had to supply a gum shield for rugby.

I'm sure it will protect him from concussion.
There was a time when it was thought to be the case that they did. Clearly this is now an old wives tale as the RFU's advice is

Protective equipment
Rugby head guards do not protect against concussion. They do protect against superficial injuries to the head such as cuts and grazes though - this has been demonstrated in a number of research studies. There is also however some evidence to suggest that head guards may increase risk taking behaviours in some players.

Mouth guards/gum shields do not protect against concussion either although they are strongly recommended for all players as they do protect against dental and facial injuries.
 

rugby bloke

Veteran
Location
Northamptonshire
Gum shields are pretty essential, protecting the player from anything from a broken tooth to a broken jaw. Scrum caps only protect the player's head from cuts, abrasions etc from scrums, they certainly won't prevent a concussion injury. We also need to keep sight of the fact that head injuries don't just occur around the tackle area. I have had players injure themselves through poor body position when carrying the ball into contact, in other cases through a clash of heads due to a lack of communication leading to 2 players wanting to occupy the same space at the same time.

The key is coaching and referring / control of the game. Also, much as I love the game, it is not a sport that players should be forced to play. It should be voluntary, if the school does not have enough players available to play a 15 aside game then play 10 a side or even 7 a side.
 

GrumpyGregry

Here for rides.
Gum shields are pretty essential, protecting the player from anything from a broken tooth to a broken jaw. Scrum caps only protect the player's head from cuts, abrasions etc from scrums, they certainly won't prevent a concussion injury. We also need to keep sight of the fact that head injuries don't just occur around the tackle area. I have had players injure themselves through poor body position when carrying the ball into contact, in other cases through a clash of heads due to a lack of communication leading to 2 players wanting to occupy the same space at the same time.

The key is coaching and referring / control of the game. Also, much as I love the game, it is not a sport that players should be forced to play. It should be voluntary, if the school does not have enough players available to play a 15 aside game then play 10 a side or even 7 a side.
The challenge with sevens is the slightly daft aspect of playing it on a full-size pitch. And, as an aside, school children's sevens scrums are even more unstable when contested than 15's.
 

GrumpyGregry

Here for rides.
Now that's interesting - a parallel with the bike helmet argument (and no doubt the same misunderstandings).

Schools must be getting lots of queries from concerned parents.
Protective equipment
Rugby head guards do not protect against concussion. They do protect against superficial injuries to the head such as cuts and grazes though - this has been demonstrated in a number of research studies. There is also however some evidence to suggest that head guards may increase risk taking behaviours in some players.
 

nickyboy

Norven Mankey
as someone who loves combat sports and has boxed, boxing in schools is a terrible outdated idea, its not an inclusive sport for all to do and even if there is no sparring its not something most kids would benefit from, I believe activities such as pilates, yoga, tai chi would be better than competitive sports, kids don't go to school to play competitive sports, the kids that already play competitive sport do so in their own time, so lets get rid of it from schools and bring in activities that are inclusive for all.

Son #2 plays rugby, football and cricket for school. He doesn't play any competitive sport outside school. Of his school rugby team only 4 of the 18 or so regular starters play rugby outside school. I think of the girl's hockey and netball teams at school virtually all the girls only play for the school team
 
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