Rule change

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Thanks for this. One for the Christmas stocking I think.

It's a very good book, well worth getting; the way the book is set out means you can read cover-to-cover or choose a section (there are 5 sections - The Heroic Age, Cycling as a Mass Sport, The Golden Age, After The Golden Age, and The Age of Doping) or choose a chapter from the different sections (some of it might be "lost" as it does occasionally refer to previous events, but it is not too much of an issue).
 
Investment in women's cycling

I see that FDJ is to become co-sponsor of the Poitou-Charentes Futuroscope 86 team for 2017 and 2018.
 

Hont

Guru
Location
Bromsgrove
The trouble is that many of the field-levelling ideas like salary caps, drafts, long protected franchises and so on are from the Americans who want to turn cycling into another Major League Boring-ball clone... but ASO favours a more typical European promotion/relegation system, so that's hopefully not going to happen

The problem with the typical European system is that the same hand-full of football teams win year after year (Leicester were only the 6th team to win the Premier League in its 24 years). Compared to the 8 different Superbowl winners in the last eight years and 10 different World Series winners in the last 15 years.

It's fair to say that cycling hasn't reached Premier League levels of oligarchy yet, but that's mainly due to sponsors coming and going. What if Sky continue to invest for another ten years? They've won the Tour 4 times out of the last 5 years and to the wider public that's the only race that matters.

Hopefully the balance of power will shift as it has done in the past, but when Jonathan Vaughters reveals that the highest paid rider in his Tour team wouldn't even be in Sky's top 7 it feels very much like Bournemouth talking about Manchester City.
 

Hont

Guru
Location
Bromsgrove
It's funny how the calls for a change to the "Unfair" rules only come during a British period of dominance. We seem to be embarrassed when we have winners at the top in sport whereas the rest of the world appreciate their heroes.

I don't think it's embarrassment, just our sense of fair play :smile:. I'm delighted that a GB registered rider has won 4 out of the last 5 and 30 stages overall. But how would we feel if it was French or German domination, or even worse Australian? ;)

The Tour is probably more competitive in recent years than at any time in it's history, with winning margins being measured in handfuls of minutes rather than being over by half distance which it often was in the past.

That's true but I think one of the main reasons for gaps being smaller is the reduction in time trialling kilometres. This tour was supposed to be time trial heavy because it had (!) 54.5 Km, but when Armstrong was "winning" by six minutes every year it was typically 150km. But just as importantly it didn't feel like a close race because, other than on the stage he crashed, no GC rival ever put time into Froome.
 

mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
The problem with the typical European system is that the same hand-full of football teams win year after year (Leicester were only the 6th team to win the Premier League in its 24 years). Compared to the 8 different Superbowl winners in the last eight years and 10 different World Series winners in the last 15 years.
The Premier League system with its entrenchment measures (clubs finishing highest get most resources) is an attempt to bring Major League style stagnation within an open-in-theory system. Also, both Superbowl and World Series have cup-style final stages, while our more-comparable FA Cup has 5 different winners in the last six years... but the MLB/NFL systems are designed to weaken the strongest and strengthen the weakest, so you'd expect them to have more different winners as that's what the structure does.

The unfairness is that the same clubs have occupied the top level of MLB for nearly 20 years, while most of the NFL is from the 1970s - if the English FA had adopted the same model then, we'd have been seeing Huddersfield and Blackpool in the top flight forever and Leicester stuck outside. Any promotion would be by application, a method that English football stopped using after 1986.

It's fair to say that cycling hasn't reached Premier League levels of oligarchy yet, but that's mainly due to sponsors coming and going. What if Sky continue to invest for another ten years? They've won the Tour 4 times out of the last 5 years and to the wider public that's the only race that matters.
Which is a more likely solution to one organisation (ASO, not Team Sky) possibly taking a dominant position: let the current teams dominate instead and so jump from the frying pan into the fire; or aim to strengthen the other races to the wider public? (Can you tell what I think? ;) )

Hopefully the balance of power will shift as it has done in the past, but when Jonathan Vaughters reveals that the highest paid rider in his Tour team wouldn't even be in Sky's top 7 it feels very much like Bournemouth talking about Manchester City.
I'd love to know whether Jonathan Vaughters really knows so many of another team's salaries or if that's just a cute line to further his argument for a closed-shop of teams - unsurprisingly, as a team manager, Vaughters wants to strengthen teams at the expense of both race organisers and the UCI.

It's worth remembering that Team Sky came from small beginnings and if the conditions for stepping up through the levels are made clearer, another strong team will do that same. Or, who knows, Vaughters might find a bigger sponsor who would commit when there's more clarity about what would allow the team to continue at the top level, rather than the current rather shadowy licensing system - many sports sponsors will be familiar with the idea of divisions from other sports.
 

Booyaa

Veteran
How about, on the last day, however much you are ahead is your head start ^_^ like the last event in that Gladiators show that used to be on. That could be fun to watch.
That is a tremendous idea. I like that!
 

Hont

Guru
Location
Bromsgrove
The Premier League system with its entrenchment measures (clubs finishing highest get most resources)
That's not the reason so few clubs compete for the Premier League title, otherwise Man City would still be in the Championship. The reason is financial inequality.

The unfairness is that the same clubs have occupied the top level of MLB for nearly 20 years, while most of the NFL is from the 1970s - if the English FA had adopted the same model then, we'd have been seeing Huddersfield and Blackpool in the top flight forever and Leicester stuck outside.
That's fair comment, but doesn't actually apply to cycling as there is no real relegation and promotion under the current system.

I'd love to know whether Jonathan Vaughters really knows so many of another team's salaries
Whether he does or doesn't is not really the point. We both know it's probably about right.

It's worth remembering that Team Sky came from small beginnings
They didn't though did they? They came in with a massive £14m+ budget, got wild-card entries to all three Grand Tours in their debut season and WT status (or whatever it was back then) by season 2.

I know you don't believe Sky would be dominating the Tour de France (and Paris-Nice and the Dauphine) if they had the same budget as FDJ. As I said, maybe it will balance out, but if we're sitting here in 2026 and Sky have won 8 more Tours then cycling won't be in the best state (neither will I come to that).
 

smutchin

Cat 6 Racer
Location
The Red Enclave
They didn't though did they? They came in with a massive £14m+ budget, got wild-card entries to all three Grand Tours in their debut season and WT status (or whatever it was back then) by season 2.

Almost - two new teams, Sky and RadioShack, joined the ProTour (predecessor to the WorldTour) in 2010. Neither spent any time as Continental teams. They were guaranteed/obliged to take part in all ProTour events, rather than being given wildcard entries.

It's interesting that they were able to walk straight in to the top table like that. BMC had been operating as a Continental team since 2007, signed Hincapie, Evans and Ballan for 2010 and got wildcards to the Tour and Giro, and then got upgraded to WorldTour status in 2011.

If it were only about money, the proposed Bahrain team wouldn't be having so much trouble getting off the ground.
 
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Hont

Guru
Location
Bromsgrove
Almost - two new teams, Sky and RadioShack, joined the ProTour (predecessor to the WorldTour) in 2010. Neither spent any time as Continental teams. They were guaranteed/obliged to take part in all ProTour events, rather than being given wildcard entries.
ProTour. That was it. Thanks for the correction.
 

mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
That's not the reason so few clubs compete for the Premier League title, otherwise Man City would still be in the Championship. The reason is financial inequality.
Yes, I agree, and that financial inequality is entrenched, encouraged to continue by the structure of the Premier League's contracts. For example, more of the domestic TV revenue goes to the top clubs:
SZYMANSKI: Right. So strictly it’s like this. The domestic money is divided into three parts. Half of it is divided on completely equal shares. Twenty-five percent of it is decided upon your rank in the league, and you get — it’s divided into twentieths. You get 20 twentieths if you come first, 19 twentieths if you come second, 18, 17 twentieths and so on down to one. And then, finally, a quarter of it is divided on the basis of how many times you appear on television, because not all the games are shown on TV. And the more successful clubs tend to have their games televised more often, and therefore you get a larger share; you get an appearance fee every time you appear on TV.

That's fair comment, but doesn't actually apply to cycling as there is no real relegation and promotion under the current system.
Not at the moment. ASO reportedly is pushing to change that and I'd think it would be a good thing. They're supporting a right rule change, probably for the wrong reasons.

They didn't though did they? They came in with a massive £14m+ budget, got wild-card entries to all three Grand Tours in their debut season and WT status (or whatever it was back then) by season 2.
Team Sky went from zero to top-level status in one season. You can't start much smaller than zero. At the moment, in theory, almost anyone (maybe Alonso, maybe Prince Nasser bin Hamad Al Khalifa, maybe someone else) could come in big, outfund Team Sky and beat them quickly. That probably makes sponsors nervous and gives another reason to hold off committing to multi-year deals, knowing the team they back could be priced out of the game so quickly.
 
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mjr

Comfy armchair to one person & a plank to the next
Almost - two new teams, Sky and RadioShack, joined the ProTour (predecessor to the WorldTour) in 2010. Neither spent any time as Continental teams. They were guaranteed/obliged to take part in all ProTour events, rather than being given wildcard entries.

It's interesting that they were able to walk straight in to the top table like that. [...]
For completeness: Leopard also did it in 2011 and GreenEDGE in 2012. My, the McQuaid years were interesting, weren't they?
 
I recall when Sky started off and everyone* laughed when they stated the aim was to win a Tour within 5 years.

* not me obviously, I was convinced they would **

** which is actually true
 
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