Safer to jump red lights? - Times article

[benb]

Yes, that's what I thought you meant. I just don't hear it myself, although it's clear that it happens.

I guess it helps that I rarely talk about cycling unless I'm with cycling folk - who wouldn't say that anyway...

It's especially frequent on comments under news articles, and is astonishing double standards.
It's not the worst thing in the world, but it does annoy me.

 

[Red Light]

On RLJ drivers: I absolutely agree that it is more dangerous in a car or lorry, but I see far, far fewer in London and in the sticks than I do cyclist RLJs. I've read data saying that an enormous number of motorists in the UK are RLJ offenders, but I rarely see it. With bicycles, I expect to see it; and I do.

Probably more accurate to say you don't notice it. What you will generally see with motor vehicles is a line of motor vehicles going through the junction. Typically the last one or two will have crossed on a red but unless you are paying particular attention to the lights you will not know which ones ran a red. An RAC survey found one in ten cars and one in five buses crossed more than three seconds after the light had gone red.

Compare that with cyclists who will rarely emulate the cars because they know the time it takes to cross the junction will have them flattened by the cross traffic. So what you see is cyclist sat at the front of stationary traffic setting off while the traffic remains stationary i.e. it stands out that they are crossing on the red. A TfL study set out to monitor 5 junctions in London to quantify the red light jumping reputation and found one in five cyclists crossed a red light. So pretty much the same as motorists but very different in visibility.

 

[Red Light]

An interesting post. On your first paragraph about "dangerous, selfish, impatient": That's pretty much every RLJ isn't it?

Well as we've already covered, dangerous? - No. Selfish - not sure; are pedestrians selfish for crossing on a red light? Impatient - probably but also anxious to get away before the motorised Grand Prix when the lights change.

 

[Bicycle]

Probably more accurate to say you don't notice it. What you will generally see with motor vehicles is a line of motor vehicles going through the junction. Typically the last one or two will have crossed on a red but unless you are paying particular attention to the lights you will not know which ones ran a red. An RAC survey found one in ten cars and one in five buses crossed more than three seconds after the light had gone red.

Compare that with cyclists who will rarely emulate the cars because they know the time it takes to cross the junction will have them flattened by the cross traffic. So what you see is cyclist sat at the front of stationary traffic setting off while the traffic remains stationary i.e. it stands out that they are crossing on the red. A TfL study set out to monitor 5 junctions in London to quantify the red light jumping reputation and found one in five cyclists crossed a red light. So pretty much the same as motorists but very different in visibility.

I read of that survey some months ago and for the next few days (in West London, North London, 3 Counties and M4 corridor) I looked for this 10% of cars.

I saw very few. 10% of cars crossing more than 3 seconds after a signal goes to red. That is far, far beyond anything I've ever seen in the UK or anywhere else. Anyone who finds that figure credible, go to five random, light-controlled junctions and count maybe 200 cars at each being stopped by a red light. You'll need 20 of those to pass more than 3 seconds after the signal has gone to red. That means you may well have about than number again who cross during the first 3 seconds of the signal being at red.

It is worth counting three seconds in one's head. that is quite a time in a car travelling at 20, 30 or 40 mph.

The whole exercise takes only a few moments at each junction and is quite revealing. You'll need longer (much longer) to get a decent number of buses. I failed to hit even 20 per junction who were required to stop at red lights. I got bored before I had enough. But... if you do manage to find junctions with a good sample population of buses, the figure you're looking for is 20%. That's 20% crossing more than three seconds after the signal goes to red.

I can't gainsay the numbers, but they are massively different to anything I've ever noticed and significantly different to the figures I got while doing my own little (and not-very-professional) test of the data.

Seriously, try it. Try to get even close to the 10% figure for 3 seconds.

And on the matter of guessing it might be more accurate to say I simply didn't notice, I am gigglingly bemused. It has been my practice over the past thirty years as a motorist to pay 'particular attention to the lights'. That's how I've managed to stay alive and not kill anyone.

 

[gaz]

 

[Red Light]

Seriously, try it. Try to get even close to the 10% figure for 3 seconds.

I do de facto try it all the time. I stop on my bike when the light goes red and watch the passing cars go barreling on through.

 

[Bicycle]

Well as we've already covered, dangerous? - No. Selfish - not sure; are pedestrians selfish for crossing on a red light? Impatient - probably but also anxious to get away before the motorised Grand Prix when the lights change.

Oddly, I read this as a someone who cycles frequently in London. My darling and dearest eldest child will be moving back there (with bicycle) after her gap year when she starts at UL.

I have never, ever felt the need to anticipate a green (move on red) to avoid a traffic-light grand prix. I was a motorcycle courier, guilty of initiating more urban grands prix than I've had hot dinners.

I do still hop the odd red in London, but it is always for one of the three reasons given or a combination of them.

That I do it is wrong. I am not riding as I should. There may be people out there who are ill-equipped for one reason or another to deal with urban traffic. It may be because they are non-drivers; it may be for some other reason. I'd suggest they used another route rather than hopping red lights as a means of protecting themselves from traffic.

But that's just me.

 

[Red Light]

You must have used special effects on your video because cars rarely cross a red light according to Bicycle.

 

[gaz]

You must have used special effects on your video because cars rarely cross a red light according to Bicycle.

Can we include those who cross the first stop line into an ASL? As I see a fair few doing that.

 

[Red Light]

Can we include those who cross the first stop line into an ASL? As I see a fair few doing that.

Definitely. The law says they should stop at the first stop line unless they are unable to do so which is virtually the same instruction as for a single line junction. Therefore anyone inside the box would have run the light if there had not been a second line there.

 

[Jezston]

I see far, far more drivers jumping red lights than I see cyclists doing so, but then I see far more drivers than I see cyclists round my way anyway.

See where the white and blue van is in the below streetview?
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=derby&hl=en&ll=52.920833,-1.471035&spn=0.000325,0.000626&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=20.857001,41.044922&hnear=Derby, United Kingdom&t=h&z=21&layer=c&cbll=52.920833,-1.471035&panoid=5E4RTaPr_-jgQIPaboQ06A&cbp=12,89.74,,0,5.2
Every morning on my way in to work I stop there. The lights in front of the silver Mondeo in the foreground are green for a phase immediately before mine turns green.

Every. Single. Morning. I have to wait a few seconds after mine turns green before I can pull out because at least one car, often up to three, will keep going through after their light has turned red. By the time I get through the lights for the traffic crossing me are about to turn green and there's been a couple of times where it's got a bit close.

Neither council nor police seem terribly interested. I guess we'll have to wait until someone gets killed.

 

[benb]

The one yesterday was the worst I have seen for ages. Light was well red, and there was a pedestrian waiting, who could easily have started to cross. Can't make out the reg though.

 

[dellzeqq]

there's a lot of red light jumping in London - why, even this morning, a perfectly respectable lady of a certain age went through a red light in Stockwell on a Brompton!!!! - but whether there are more cyclists than cars I've no idea, and, then again, rlj-ing is much more prevalent in certain parts of London than others.

Surely the thing to do is to give it a go at some junctions? That way we'll find out. I'm a bit gloomy about it, and Red Light is more sanguine, but if he's proved right and I'm proved wrong, then that's fine by me.

 

[lejogger]

I commend the Times for the added publicity they've brought to cycling safety over recent weeks, but unfortunately the downside is the number of times we have to have this same discussion - has anyone actually ever entered a thread on RLJing and then changed their opinion due to someone's argument?

We clearly have two camps represented on this forum; the 'strictly no RLJs ever' brigade, and the 'I'll RLJ when I believe it's safe to do so' society. Fortunately we don't appear to have too much representation from the 'No lights can tell me what to do, I'll ignore them whatever the cost' group.

IMHO the simple truth is that there's a clear moral and legal argument for never RLJing. It's the law and even if your RLJ is (in your opinion) completely safe, if it rubs up a motorist the wrong way and they drive inconsiderately because of it, then it's had a negative effect that might backfire on you or someone else... In very much the same way that when I'm about to set off from a light and a car or van flies through on a red, I get annoyed and view all motorists more negatively until distracted or for the rest of my ride. I don't have anything against anyone who refuses to ever RLJ. That's completely their prerogative even if they live somewhere where RLJs on specific occasions were legal. Cycle in a manner that makes you feel safe.

That said, I've RLJd (on the odd occasion), and probably will continue to do so (on the odd occasion)... however we certainly need some clarification on what exactly we're talking about here. Is an RLJ any single incidence of crossing the line before they change? Or are there differing levels of severity. Is 'getting a jump' on the lights different to just wading through in the middle of the change cycle? Is there not an argument (providing you know the order of change) for taking that split second while all sets are on red to get clipped in, get a cars length ahead of traffic in primary (not necessarily across or halfway across the junction) to ensure that you're controlling the road, once the green arrives, for any potential hazards that appear when through the lights. As we all know, most junction entrances and exits are pinchpoints either by design or parked cars etc.

Now what about this example where I've filtered through a queue of cars waiting at a red on an incline. The only filter lane was from the right, nothing was coming so I carried on straight through the junction. This was therefore straight on along the top part of a T junction - so the kind of manouvre that is going to be legalised as a trial in Paris, and is also legal in other parts of europe and in parts of the US. In my opinion I had a perfectly clear view of any approaching traffic or pedestrians so was safe to proceed. When the first car who had been waiting passed me, he passed and gave me a loud honk of disapproval. Fair enough, I'd broken the law and he didn't like it, but what exactly had he lost out on? On that exact same junction I've waited in the ASL or in primary in turn, and received close/fast/high-revving passes from disgruntled motorists who I've held up by getting started and clipping in on the incline and therefore been slower than I normally would be. I've obeyed the law on the light but still p1ssed everyone off just by being there and being slower than they would like me to be. In the first incident I've got out of everyone's way, not held them up, and given them an opportunity to pass on a wider stretch of road... I disagree that my actions are out of selfishness alone, as a large part of my decision on that manouvre is consideration to the other traffic as well as my own safety.

 

[Bicycle]

You must have used special effects on your video because cars rarely cross a red light according to Bicycle.

Yes, that's what I was thinking. You're the first person I've ever persuaded to think as I do on these matters.