Shimano 105, mixing generations.

[markc94]

Hey all,

Currently upgrading my runaround, I'm currently tempted by some great deals on the Shimano 105 dual pivot brakes.

The bike I have is a Schwinn 434 with old Shimano 600 single pivot brakes on the front (BR-6400) and old Shimano 105 single pivot on the back (BR-1050). Currently sporting some lovely vintage Shimano brake levers too (BL-1051).

My question is, will these levers be compatible with the 105 5800 calipers? As on all the sites I've been looking at it says these need STI shifters.

If these aren't compatible, are there any others around the same price range that you would recommend?

Thanks,

Mark

 

[S-Express]

They will work - the levers pull a cable, which operates the caliper.

 

[markc94]

They will work - the levers pull a cable, which operates the caliper.

The fact that it says "Please note that this brake must be used in conjunction with ST-5800, ST-6800 or ST-9000 STI's for correct leverage ratio" on the website doesn't make any difference?

 

[S-Express]

'Correct leverage ratio' might suggest that the levers are 'optimised' to work with specific calipers, but the action is still 100% mechanical, so a pull on the lever (any lever) will still operate the caliper. Mixing/matching kit is common place and it is not going to 'not' work...

 

[markc94]

'Correct leverage ratio' might suggest that the levers are 'optimised' to work with specific calipers, but the action is still 100% mechanical, so a pull on the lever (any lever) will still operate the caliper. Mixing/matching kit is common place and it is not going to 'not' work...

That's great! Thank you!

 

[smutchin]

Yes, they will work but the advice I was given when in a similar position (looking for suitable callipers to use with some old Exage levers I had) was that they may feel a bit mushy and require more frequent adjusting.

The current generation 105 callipers are described as SLR-EV, which may just be marketing spiel but indicates a different leverage to the older SLR (Shimano Linear Response, iirc) system.

 

[markc94]

Yes, they will work but the advice I was given when in a similar position (looking for suitable callipers to use with some old Exage levers I had) was that they may feel a bit mushy and require more frequent adjusting.

The current generation 105 callipers are described as SLR-EV, which may just be marketing spiel but indicates a different leverage to the older SLR (Shimano Linear Response, iirc) system.

Would I be better off getting something like the Tiagra Brakes which aren't classed as SLR-EV? Therefore they might have better stopping power?

Or are there any other brakes around that price which are suited better to my levers?

 

[smutchin]

Would I be better off getting something like the Tiagra Brakes which aren't classed as SLR-EV? Therefore they might have better stopping power?

Or are there any other brakes around that price which are suited better to my levers?

What you need to bear in mind is that your brake levers for single-pivot brakes are designed to pull less cable than the levers designed for dual-pivot brakes, which in turn pull less cable than the current generation SLR-EV levers.

So, SLR callipers will probably work better than SLR-EV callipers, but still won't be optimal.

If you want, you could replace the levers as well - I ended up buying a set of these for my fixie:
https://www.condorcycles.com/collections/brake-levers/products/condor-road-brake-levers
(I think they're rebadged Tektro levers, but in any case, they're designed to work with dual-pivot brakes and would be a good match for any Shimano SLR callipers - you could pick up some older generation 105 or Ultegra callipers pretty cheaply on ebay.)

 

[markc94]

What you need to bear in mind is that your brake levers for single-pivot brakes are designed to pull less cable than the levers designed for dual-pivot brakes, which in turn pull less cable than the current generation SLR-EV levers.

So, SLR callipers will probably work better than SLR-EV callipers, but still won't be optimal.

If you want, you could replace the levers as well - I ended up buying a set of these for my fixie:
https://www.condorcycles.com/collections/brake-levers/products/condor-road-brake-levers
(I think they're rebadged Tektro levers, but in any case, they're designed to work with dual-pivot brakes and would be a good match for any Shimano SLR callipers - you could pick up some older generation 105 or Ultegra callipers pretty cheaply on ebay.)

Ah so those levers will work with the likes of the Tiagra which are Super SLR I think and not SLR-EV? What about Tektro dual-pivot brakes, does the same case apply with those?

 

[smutchin]

Ah so those levers will work with the likes of the Tiagra which are Super SLR I think and not SLR-EV? What about Tektro dual-pivot brakes, does the same case apply with those?

Yes, they'll work with Tiagra and Tektro DPs equally well. (Of the two, I would go for the Tiagra.)

It's only the latest SLR-EV that use a different leverage ratio, and only Shimano make those (as far as I know). It's just a shame they don't make non-STI levers to use with them.

 

[Yellow Saddle]

'Correct leverage ratio' might suggest that the levers are 'optimised' to work with specific calipers, but the action is still 100% mechanical, so a pull on the lever (any lever) will still operate the caliper. Mixing/matching kit is common place and it is not going to 'not' work...

I'm not so sure this is so. AFIK the mechanical advantage of the two types of brakes is different. The dual pivot calipers have a higher advantage which means the calipers receive less pull than single caliper brakes. Therefore the modern levers will run out of travel before the older calipers have hit the rims. No? Yes?

 

[markc94]

Yes, they'll work with Tiagra and Tektro DPs equally well. (Of the two, I would go for the Tiagra.)

It's only the latest SLR-EV that use a different leverage ratio, and only Shimano make those (as far as I know). It's just a shame they don't make non-STI levers to use with them.

I've seen some 105 5700 series brake calipers at decent prices! They're pre SLR-EV yes?

Scrap that, there's no new rear calipers - Tiagra it is

 

[smutchin]

Shimano brake systems compatibility chart:
http://productinfo.shimano.com/#/com/1.8?cid=C-453&acid=C-456

This suggests that 4600 (old Tiagra), 4700 (new Tiagra), 5700 (old 105) and 5800 (new 105) are all interchangeable. So you can mix and match brakes and levers to your heart's content.

But not with your old 600 stuff.

I'm slightly confused by all this, tbh, and no longer sure that I entirely understand the differences between SLR, Super SLR and SLR-EV!

(ETA: apparently, there's also "New Super SLR" to add to the confusion.)

 

[markc94]

Shimano brake systems compatibility chart:
http://productinfo.shimano.com/#/com/1.8?cid=C-453&acid=C-456

This suggests that 4600 (old Tiagra), 4700 (new Tiagra), 5700 (old 105) and 5800 (new 105) are all interchangeable. So you can mix and match brakes and levers to your heart's content.

But not with your old 600 stuff.

I'm slightly confused by all this, tbh, and no longer sure that I entirely understand the differences between SLR, Super SLR and SLR-EV!

(ETA: apparently, there's also "New Super SLR" to add to the confusion.)

Is shimano's word gospel?

It looks like the only levers that are compatible are the STI shifters, I might have to look at Tektro?

 

[markc94]

I (stupidly) bit the bullet and bought some 5800 105's. Going to see what levers I can get to fit them - internet forums seem to suggest Tektro RL520?