Should I buy a tiny, less-than-ideal flat?

[Fastpedaller]

I always thought it would be worth working a 'buyers co-operative' with friends........ a series of low-ball prices and the seller will submit!

 

[wafter]

Thanks all - responses below subject to the caveat that *an amount* of vodka has been consumed this evening at Wafter towers..

 

[Jameshow]

Thanks all - responses below subject to the caveat that *an amount* of vodka has been consumed this evening at Wafter towers..

Ditto cider!!!

 

[wafter]

I feel for you in respect of the commute as I can't stand it either and it just keeps getting busier. It's one of the few reasons I've stayed in my current job for so long.

This winter may have hammered you for a few reasons but there is a 7 month window before it really starts drawing back in. There is plenty of time for something to crop up. Couple that with more houses coming onto the market in summer and little chance the economy is going to take any reasonable turn.

I noticed concern about making offers that don't seem reasonable. Forget that and low ball someone if you feel there is an angle. If you have a DIP, deposit and no chain then you're in a very strong position.

Cheers - the winter's always a low point, however the summer / winter highs and lows currently fluctuate about a general downward trend as time marches on. So I look forward to summer, but I know that until I can escape my current circumstances I'm still on a gentle trajectory into the centre of the sun.

I think it's a fine line with the offers; the agents are clearly aware that the market's turning / turned and need to talk down the sellers whose business they've likely secured with suggestions of high sale prices; however everyone has a threshold beyond which an offer is considered to be taking the piss.

On the last, nice / larger flat I went -12% on (recently reduced) asking; which was rejected. On the tiny dark hovel that's the subject of this thread I declined to offer, however would have probably gone -25% - although that's a bit of a special case as I have the agent's backing and the seller's apparently a bit of a blunted fantasist.

I appreciate that my position is pretty good, however given the market sector I'm buying in, the properties on offer are probably only going to appeal to BTL slumlords or FTB's - so in that regard I'm not exceptional financially.

I know I've rubbed you up the wrong way previously and may be about to do it again. Apologies in advance.

Not making light of your current situation at all * but I firmly believe that a change in mindset could help.
Taking your commute as an example. It sounds horrendous and stressful. What can you do to change that?

Podcasts, audio books, music are all things that could reduce the misery. A good book might even be something to look forward to!
I presume a bike is out? But every day? Would alternating work? Drive in one day then cycle home and reverse the next day?

Is there anyone to share the journey with? A regular passenger to defray the costs or someone to split the driving with?

Can your start time be varied to better suit the traffic?

Are there any nice places to pull in for a minute and just appreciate the view or that tree?

What about leaving really early and using a gym before work? Or even hitting a gym before going home. Or meeting friends?

There are probably many more things you could try based on what you like and enjoy, or at least prefer to the current situation.

For the bigger picture, it may help to see the current situation (and all the negatives) as a step along the road to the destination of having your own home. Temporary in nature, far from perfect but a necessary point to pass through. Try to focus on the positives - you're saving money for one thing - and what they might mean in the future - a better flat, or one that feels better, at least. Feeling good is not to be overrated.

I get that you've been "at home" for two years but I'd urge you not to look back (that number is only getting bigger) and instead to look forward. You may not know how many days until you have your own place but that number is getting smaller.

I know that may read as very glib and probably dumb but sometimes it's the small things, done regularly that can have more impact than the big, grand gestures.

* I know a little of what I speak. Older than you, I find myself living in a shared situation that would have been unappealing to me 30 years ago. The other night I had to dig out my Trangia cookset because there wasn't a clean pot in the place (and I was fecked if I was going to wash them - again) just to make dinner.
It's part of a plan, a bigger picture. I keep my spirits up by doing lots of what I've outlined above.

If I were in your shoes I'd be nervous that my dislike of my present circumstances would influence me to make a poor decision with respect to buying a house.

Good luck

Thanks - it's all good an I appreciate your good intentions; likewise I'm thankful for your suggestions and desire to improve my situation; at best it gives me something to consider; at worst the ability to confirm why I've not taken a route I've already considered.. drumroll please

The commute is certainly horrendous and stressful.

Audio jazz is a good shout; however since I disconnected the battery in the car the radio is bricked, and I'm too tight to pay Honda 5% of the vehicle's value to unlock the radio. I do need to buy another MP3 player (after a succession of cheap ones died on me) however realistically I'm only likely to use this to fill my head with stuff that makes the commute more dysfunctional and aggressive

Realistically the bike's out as it's 25 miles each way and I simply lack the fitness to deal with that on top of a mentally draining working day.. as much as I'd like to. When the weather's nice in the summer I'm tempted to give it a go as a one off (and take it from there) although I doubt it'll prove to be viable on a regular basis.

I can't see ride-sharing working on a practical level; and tbh I'd pity the fool who'd share a car with me whilst I'm at my most nihilistically-dysfucntional

The start time has already been pulled forward by half an hour to try to miss the worst of the traffic, however it remains shite. I can't go later as working hours are dictated by the 9-5 wage slaves who rely on us for support.

The morning commute requires a paradigm shift in thinking. There is no "pulling in to appreciate the view" - it's simply all out, me-or-them war against other road users. The five minutes sat in a layby appreciating the sunset is nothing more than an opportunity for fifty narcissistic, middle-manager scumbags in 320is to usurp my position in the ring-road queue and cost me 30 minutes in additional travelling time sat in traffic, slowly decending down the spiral toward oblivion.

I don't do gyms (I'm too tight and self-conscious) or mornings if I can help it. Weather permitting I do a mental health ride one day a week before meeting friend at the pub, which helps a lot in isolation - although only in terms of 1/6th of the commuting horror.

I agree about long term goals and sell this utterly miserable, futile, entirely destructive process as a road to something much more virtuous, sustainable and low stress - however that's of little solice on a frantic, stop-start Monday morning when I could absolutely tear he head off that guy in the 6-month old Passat who's been tailgating me for the past two miles..

The bottom line is that I have a plan, I know quantitively that I'm making progress, however however I try to rationalise it, the daily grind is destroying me and I'm finding it increasingly difficult to deal with.

Thanks for your thoughts though - I know they're well meaning and sincere, and appreciate you taking the time to convey them

Or as an alternative to a gym, can you stick a bike in the car and go for a cycle ride before work having left car at office? And have another ride before driving home, spring is coming after all Can you leave a spare bike at work to make this easier?

Doesn't have to be every day, IME traffic tends to be less horrible on a Monday/Friday in the 7-9am rushour, so perhaps do the earlies and lates on Tues-Thurs

Ta - my glorious street-find router lives at the office for work-based excursions in the city and pre-pub mental health rides when the weather permits. Realistically I struggle with mornings so am unlikely to be able to fit in a ride before work, although as the nights shrink I'll maybe give that some thought.

I'd not considered going out for a ride pre-commute-home, although it's a possibility. Tbh after a day at work all I want to do is get away from people and shrink into a darkened room; although a ride might be a decent alternative. I do sometimes shop on the way home, so perhaps I could do this on the bike instead of doing it en-route in the car..

That would be my concern also. It's a fine line.

tbh I'm super-cautious and my rational side will always trump any emotional impulsivity (at least in the long term) so I'm not going to rush out and buy something wholly unsuitable just to escape. To clarify, the the flat that's the subject of this thread is probably in the top 5% of what's come to market (relative to both "global" factors such as service charge as well as my own specific needs).. so fear not that I'll end up in some overpriced, crime-ridden hell hole just to escape. If anything I'm probably too picky..

Can you look for another job closer to your present home? Is that a possibility? How long is your commute? I used to have to do a 2 hrs there and back, 4 hours in total everyday and I was ready to pack my job in. I'd had enough of that.

I've considered that, but realistically there are too many downsides. The commute on a good day should take circa. 30 mins, but with complicating factors (i.e. an excess volume of dickheads) typically it's 45 mins plus; occasionally close to 1.5hrs when someone really screws the pooch. It's not just the time though - it's the stress of constant stop-start driving, indignation about how the stupidity / selfishness of others is directly impacting upon me (and by extension those around me).. bottom line I need it gone.

Stuff closer could be better, however changing jobs would bring repercussions with regard to the mortgage eligibility (most places want at least 3 months worth of pay slips from one place) and ultimately I'm pretty unemployable. I've got a reasonably easy deal currently as I'm working with / for friends, however I'm not sure how long that's likely to work before my lack of productivity turns it sour. Working in Oxford also allows me access to the city and the opportunity to socialise, which would be sorely missed if I ended up working elsewhere.

Round here the alternatives are soul-destroying menial jobs in the local town, or drowning puppies for the entertainment of Daily-Mail reading boomers more locally.

I know that realistically I'm making progress and just need to stick with it to reach my goal; however it's slow progress and destroying my mental health.

@wafter

I wouldn't bet on BTL property prices falling - in the main they are long-term investments that generally grow against a, sometimes 'lumpy', price backdrop. Worth a read:

https://www.northpropertygroup.co.uk/news/the-prospect-of-buy-to-let-in-2023/

Re mortgage. I know you can't afford much, and fair enough, but are there properties that you could afford with a modest instead of 'tiny' mortgage? Without going OTT. A modest push now will seem irrelevant a few years down track.

Thanks - I keep an open mind but tbh that site seems run by those with a vested interest in pushing BTL. Historically BTL has accounted for circa. 10% of the market; while currently it's around 20%. Oxford is BTL-heavy and it certainly seems that a lot of stuff coming to market currently is ex-BTL; while the general consensus is that the party's over for amateur landlords..

I'd rather have no debt if possible, but of course have considered the limits of a mortage. My biggest problems are short-term affordability (meeting monthly costs) and what might happen in the future re. rates and the cost of debt. So far both the government and BOE have been consistantly "nah mate, it'll level out after another .25% hike and be down to nothing by Christmas" however this mantra has so far been proven consistently wrong.

I do agree that these factors notwithstanding, a modest mortgage will be inflated away to nowt over its term if things remain as they are - and tbh it seems likely that the government will seek to keep rates a margin lower than inflation, in order to inflate away all the public and private debt that's accrued since 2000. Looking at it from this angle, perhaps I should just go balls-out on as-big-a-mortgage as I can afford, fix it for as long as possible and hope that by the time I come to re-mortgage wages have increased disproportionately..

I always thought it would be worth working a 'buyers co-operative' with friends........ a series of low-ball prices and the seller will submit!

Indeed - if only I could co-ordinate my mates to get on board with such an idea!

 

[slowmotion]

@wafter, you've given it a lot of thought and have been receptive to advice. Congratulations! I think you have made absolutely the right decision. The lack of space and light, if you see it even before buying, are going to gnaw away at you later. As for electric heating, it'll gnaw away at your wallet.....big time.

Keep looking. You won't find anything perfect (none of us do) but you will find something better.

Good luck.

 

[wafter]

@wafter, you've given it a lot of thought and have been receptive to advice. Congratulations! I think you have made absolutely the right decision. The lack of space and light, if you see it even before buying, are going to gnaw away at you later. As for electric heating, it'll gnaw away at your wallet.....big time.

Keep looking. You won't find anything perfect (none of us do) but you will find something better.

Good luck.

Thanks - appreciate you saying so and I've really found a lot of value in the responses I've received, so thanks again to everyone who's contributed.

Buying on my own is obviously an enormous decision / responsibility and it's been very welcome to have had some reassurance from others that my thinking's generally sensible.

I threw another £5k at my offer for the second flat yesterday; not that I'm great at reading people but I think the agent is more keen to get a sale completed quickly than the seller; so perhaps they'll talk this offer up a bit in pursuit of that goal. That said, if the seller's yet to find somewhere there's probably limited value in this.

Beyond any developments there, all I can do is sit and wait I guess.

 

[Gwylan]

Write down your criteria. Assign 100 points and divide those amongst your criteria.
Rank them.

Go on Zoopla or similar and see what similar properties have sold for in the area.

When you look at prospective properties and mark them against those criteria.
Don't be "tiggered" - bumped into something you are not sure about.

Be realistic with your budgeting. Everything costs more than you expect.

Get a good surveyor for you. Not the mortgage company one. It is expense but it can save you a lot of money and disappointment.
Do not be afraid to walk away.

Beware of management companies.
Good leasehold is OK, but should be long or reflected in the price

I've moved about 10 times in my property owning career.

 

[wafter]

Write down your criteria. Assign 100 points and divide those amongst your criteria.
Rank them.

Go on Zoopla or similar and see what similar properties have sold for in the area.

When you look at prospective properties and mark them against those criteria.
Don't be "tiggered" - bumped into something you are not sure about.

Be realistic with your budgeting. Everything costs more than you expect.

Get a good surveyor for you. Not the mortgage company one. It is expense but it can save you a lot of money and disappointment.
Do not be afraid to walk away.

Beware of management companies.
Good leasehold is OK, but should be long or reflected in the price

I've moved about 10 times in my property owning career.

Thanks - I appreciate your thoughts; especially given your experience.

I've got a pretty good idea of what I want / need in a property but hadn't thought of going as far as assigning points and ranking stuff, so I might take a look at that.

I have email search alerts setup on Rightmove (typically a bit more inventory) and Zoopla (much better buyer tools such as listing price history) along with probably pushing 10yrs of searchable records of these messages, so I think I have a very good grasp of local pricing, what to expect and where I want to buy

Generally I'm impervious to "salesmanship" (actually it usually has the opposite effect as I resent the implication that I can be manipulated by someone of comparable intelligence and sophistication to a lettuce) so hopefully coercion isn't something I need to worry about.

Thanks re. the budget - I've thought this myself and will be holding back a slush fund; a larger than expected amount of which will probably be gone after all the additional costs.

You make an interesting point about the surveyor - is that because in your experience the lenders' are biased or just not good at what they do?

Generally I've walked away from a lot of stuff as my budget means that most stuff I've viewed has been less-than-enthusing; as above I'm certainly not one to be strong-armed by the agent.

Thanks re. the management companies - I totally agree and ideally I'd want somewhere with share of freehold, although these are few and far between it seems (another advantage of the nicer flat I've been out-bid on; although the service charge is a bit more than I'd like).

If nothing else, 10yrs of disappointment has certainly taught me a bit, even if I doubtless have a lot more to learn so always appreciate insight into the experiences of others!

 

[Kingfisher101]

I think from what you say you cant really afford what you want atm.
Have you thought about other options like buying a barge and living on that or a caravan/parkhome etc?

 

[vickster]

I think from what you say you cant really afford what you want atm.
Have you thought about other options like buying a barge and living on that or a caravan/parkhome etc?

In Oxford?

 

[wafter]

I think from what you say you cant really afford what you want atm.
Have you thought about other options like buying a barge and living on that or a caravan/parkhome etc?

Of course compromises would have to be made, but I'm fairly confident that I can, with patience, saving and a bit of a correction afford somewhere I'd be happy to live.

I've considered both barges and park homes; however both have enormous drawbacks. Not that I've investigated both in depth, but with barges there are mooring fees / issues (having to move around), limited space, keeping on top of the energy situation, compromises on basic facilities and the potential for both enormous maintenance costs (periodic drydock inspection and work) and depreciation.

Park homes can look OK on paper as they're a lot cheaper, however you generally can't get mortgages on them, they're usually subject to significant plot rental costs and I think they're effectively considered disposible as their construction is less substantial / future proof than something made of bricks.

While cheaper on the purchase price, I think both of these options have the potential to cost a lot more to run / maintain as well as potentially depreciating a lot more too, and potentially being harder to sell. On top of it all I think there would be far more compromises to be made if taking either route compared to a flat.

In Oxford?

There are a reasonable amount of sites for both actually; some in decent areas, some not so much..

 

[Gwylan]

Thanks - I appreciate your thoughts; especially given your experience.

I've got a pretty good idea of what I want / need in a property but hadn't thought of going as far as assigning points and ranking stuff, so I might take a look at that.

I have email search alerts setup on Rightmove (typically a bit more inventory) and Zoopla (much better buyer tools such as listing price history) along with probably pushing 10yrs of searchable records of these messages, so I think I have a very good grasp of local pricing, what to expect and where I want to buy

Generally I'm impervious to "salesmanship" (actually it usually has the opposite effect as I resent the implication that I can be manipulated by someone of comparable intelligence and sophistication to a lettuce) so hopefully coercion isn't something I need to worry about.

Thanks re. the budget - I've thought this myself and will be holding back a slush fund; a larger than expected amount of which will probably be gone after all the additional costs.

You make an interesting point about the surveyor - is that because in your experience the lenders' are biased or just not good at what they do?

Generally I've walked away from a lot of stuff as my budget means that most stuff I've viewed has been less-than-enthusing; as above I'm certainly not one to be strong-armed by the agent.

Thanks re. the management companies - I totally agree and ideally I'd want somewhere with share of freehold, although these are few and far between it seems (another advantage of the nicer flat I've been out-bid on; although the service charge is a bit more than I'd like).

If nothing else, 10yrs of disappointment has certainly taught me a bit, even if I doubtless have a lot more to learn so always appreciate insight into the experiences of others!

Re the surveyor. The mortgage company only care about getting their money back. That's different from your total commitment.
Your own surveyor has responsibility, to you, to tell you about the property. But your recourse is limited.
Their comments do give you a basis for leaning on the vendor.
Obviously you only do this if you are serious about buying the property.

 

[Fastpedaller]

As with everything of course, be sure of what a detailed survey included/excludes!
My Sister bought a place to find rot under the kitchen floor where a waste was leaking above the floor - so needed new boards and joists. When this was queried with the surveying company they said 'floor coverings can't be removed to check, so we aren't liable'. Whether a case could have progressed is questionable.
When we were looking at buying a property 25 years ago I noticed the consumer unit was very old c1960 and there was a large tree withing 20 ft of the property - I asked a potential surveyor what advice we would get for our £600 fee and was told "we can't tell you how safe the electrics are, and you'd need a tree specialist to give you advice"

So maybe if you know a good local builder who'll give the place a look over for a large drink it will be money well spent? rather than a surveyor.
When we bought our present bungalow we didn't get an expensive survey ie just the Building Soc one, but I had a very good look around. That was 19 years ago and it hasn't fallen down yet!

 

[Ming the Merciless]

A while ago I viewed a flat that's been on the market for ages.

If you buy it, you may be stuck with it for ages. If it hasn’t sold, it sounds like a lemon, unless unreasonably priced.

 

[wafter]

If you buy it, you may be stuck with it for ages. If it hasn’t sold, it sounds like a lemon, unless unreasonably priced.

Thanks - as above it's not utterly terrible but they're asking well beyond what it's worth; both by my reckoning and that of the agent tasked with flogging it