Should I have my dog put down?

[MacB]

Your very evident dislike of dogs is a positive bonus here.

You see totally wrong I happen to like dogs a lot and have spent a fair amount of time in the presence of dogs, note that I said I had never owned one not that I had never shared a home with one. This is the problem with assumptions especially those extrapolated out from one small comment. But I'm glad that at least you can acknowledge my pecking order analogy, though I accept that I was using emotive language with throwing in the word slavery.

But I'm also confused if you think that I hate dogs but also think that people like me end up with dogs, how does that work then?

 

[lulubel]

and I'll respond to you, as I've given up on Michael, and also respond rather sadly as I don't think what I'm trying to say is hard to grasp. This isn't subjective or a matter of opinion it's a very simple fact, I don't own a dog, never have and never will therefore anyone that has a dog cannot possibly share my attitude because of the simple fact that they have a dog.

That you and Michael are trying to make common ground between my views and the views of some dog owners is farcical. I object to being told I'm part of a problem by trying to make tenuous connections which don't exist.

Dell has put it very well and my attitude towards dogs would be pretty close to his I would just add that there is a wide variety of cages within which we keep animals. But however you are with your dogs don't kid yourself that there isn't a master/servant cage style relationship. Treating your servants/slaves better doesn't change the nature of that relationship.

I wasn't trying to be critical of you or say you're part of a "problem" - whatever problem others are referring to. I was just saying you're wrong in thinking there are no dog owners who share your attitudes. People who normally feel the same way as you still end up owning dogs, perhaps because they rescue a dog on a whim, or because someone else in the family gets one and they end up lumbered with the responsibility when that person loses interest or leaves.

As for the whole master/servant relationship thing, you're wrong there too - not in all cases, but certainly in some. You only need to look at my Sam's and my relationship to see which of us calls and which of us comes running. But maybe that's just an example of the difference between dogs and cats - "dogs have masters, cats have servants".

I've read Dell's post, and I agree that his description of the attitude of humans, as a species, to animals, is fairly accurate. I also find it appalling that we humans think we're so special. Humans are only "special" because we're different to every other species on the planet, in the same way as cancer cells are different to every other cell in the body. We believe we're better than animals, but when comparing the actions - not the ideals, thoughts or intentions - of humans against those of other species I can't see any justification for that belief.

As for animal rights .... Dell has tried to simplify this to the point of saying animals having rights is rubbish because rights only apply to humans. That's also wrong. Animals have rights within their own groups, although they may not think of rights as we humans do. Watch a group of wild animals that have hunted together, and see which one gets to eat their share of the kill first. In most species, it's the right of the dominant member of the group to eat first. Look at a group of primates, and see how complex and hierarchical their societies are. The more senior members of the group have more rights, whether it's eating first or that the dominant male is the only one who can breed with the females. It's a way of maintaining order. Animals may not think of rights as an abstract concept as humans do, but what we think of as rights does occur within animal communities. Trying to give rights to other species is simply a human attempt to maintain order on a crowded planet, and in my opinion, it's one of the few good things humans have ever done.

 

[Becs]

@Silver Fox #149

Its an emotional and behavioural decision, not to denigrate vets in any way at all, but I've always (30 years of pet ownership - 3 dogs currently) taken them as 'mechanics' with an understanding and ability to advise on behavioural issues but primarily focused on mending physical damage. I wouldn't criticise what Becs has said but it is one opinion amongst many with equal validity from different viewpoints on Yello's predicament (as well as some clear trolling and plain nastiness).
An example of my concern on Becs attitude is the off at a tangent post going into damaged hips, cancer etc, physically invasive ailments and 'mechanical' repairs. It's not what we're talking about here and is quite a big red herring. You wouldn't leave a psycopath or an abused child to a brain surgeon to mechanically mend. Be careful of bandying around the word expert on the basis of a job in the right ballpark.

Indeed, which was addressed in my first post in this thread. I have never claimed to be an "expert" on this matter, but 6 years of "mechanic" school does give a person a certain degree of understanding, and knowledge of any pertinent legal issues. I usually try to leave these sorts of threads well alone but I felt Yello needed some support. He is being a responsible owner and examining his own capabilities and asking advice about one of the options. As Lukedad so elloquently pointed out I am not committing to one course of action for this particular case as no vet would do that without an examination of the animal (which I recommended from the outset). However it is entirely appropriate to consider euthanasia in a case where a dog has bitten it's owner, even if the owner eventually decides against it.

With regards to the tangent, that was purely in response to a previous post where it was stated that "no decent, self respecting vet would recommend euthanasia unless it is completely the last resort" - which is simply not the case, and I gave examples of when waiting until the "last resort" might be inappropriate.

Finally, the reason we may come across as more "mechanical" in our approach is that we have to maintain the objectivity that is often lacking during emotional times and focus on relieving pain and suffering. Our responsibility is to the welfare of the animal and to the safety of its owner and/or the public and each case would be considered on an individual basis. Small animal vets will often refer on to a behaviourist (unless they have extra post-graduate training themselves) if that is considered appropriate for the situation of that particular animal.

 

[Archie_tect]

Pets are lucky that they can have a legal, pain-free exit... would that we could when things get painful and unpleasant.

 

[Silver Fox]

@Silver Fox #149

Its an emotional and behavioural decision, not to denigrate vets in any way at all, but I've always (30 years of pet ownership - 3 dogs currently) taken them as 'mechanics' with an understanding and ability to advise on behavioural issues but primarily focused on mending physical damage. I wouldn't criticise what Becs has said but it is one opinion amongst many with equal validity from different viewpoints on Yello's predicament (as well as some clear trolling and plain nastiness).
An example of my concern on Becs attitude is the off at a tangent post going into damaged hips, cancer etc, physically invasive ailments and 'mechanical' repairs. It's not what we're talking about here and is quite a big red herring. You wouldn't leave a psycopath or an abused child to a brain surgeon to mechanically mend. Be careful of bandying around the word expert on the basis of a job in the right ballpark.

Fair point, but in general I find the best advice on an issue comes from those who have the credibilty of experience and are detached from the emotion of the situation.

 

[MichaelM]

like a dog with a bone aren't you son, have a think and see if you can grasp the fact that someone may utter the same words as me but that doesn't mean that what lies underneath is the same.

Clearly you class dogs as up there with humans and think of yourself as a kind slavemaster...so in your opinion what makes a good slavemaster?

That's three people now saying that that there are people who own dogs that share share your attitude of "it's just a dog". Yet you continue to argue this despite the fact that:

... I don't own, breed or support dogs in any way shape or form and nor do I have any intention of doing so....

or that

I have no interest in dogs ...

and:

... it's a very simple fact, I don't own a dog, never have and never will...

It seems quite absurd that you are are prepared to argue this from a position of such ignorance given that you have no knowledge, experience or interest in the matter.

Your slavemaster comment makes no sense.

 

[MacB]

Michael why not print this thread out and take it along to your local primary school. Any of the teachers there would be able to explain where your reading and comprehension have failed. Actually a fair few of the kids probably could as well...and that goes for the others claiming I share this all encompassing attitude.

I'll continue on secure in the knowledge that anyone that does actually share my attitude to dogs wouldn't have a dog because they wouldn't want one. Anyone veering from that path, whether spur of the moment, familial pressure, whatever, would no longer share my attitude.

 

[MichaelM]

Michael why not print this thread out and take it along to your local primary school. Any of the teachers there would be able to explain where your reading and comprehension have failed. Actually a fair few of the kids probably could as well...and that goes for the others claiming I share this all encompassing attitude.

I'll continue on secure in the knowledge that anyone that does actually share my attitude to dogs wouldn't have a dog because they wouldn't want one. Anyone veering from that path, whether spur of the moment, familial pressure, whatever, would no longer share my attitude.

Very mature.

 

[dellzeqq]

[QUOTE 2280687, member: 45"]If a dog is put down, it doesn't know. It isn't able to feel sad because it's dead. It's not cruel to deprive it of life because it doesn't know that it has been deprived of life.

The emotions around animals are our own.[/quote]
well put.

As luck would have it the cat I adore is sitting in a cage at the vets right now. I may bring him home tomorrow, or I may have him offed. The decision is mine to make, and my duty, as I see it, is to elicit from the vet how he will get on with kidney failure and diabetes. What I do know is this - he has no history in his little head. If I were on my last legs I'd be thinking about past pleasures, friendships, my family, riding over the Pyrennees or up to John O'Groats, buildings I've drawn and so on and so forth. I might even pen an apology or two. He won't have that luxury - all he has is the present and the notion that the big bald chap keeps him warm and fed. The sweet nature that has ladies of a certain vintage begging for medical bulletins (it took half an hour to get up the street this evening) is a thing of habit mixing survival instincts with a finely honed appreciation of what it takes to get loved up. He's not conscious of his own life story, and doesn't have a view on death. He may be able to distinguish the sound of my footstep from all the other city noises, and I can't help but be flattered when he comes down the street to meet me, but, he really doesn't see much beyond seventeen years of Science Diet, prawns and chicken slices, together with a bit of head petting and tummy tickling. He's adorable in the sense that people are able to adore him.

So my take on Yello's predicament is simply this. What life will the dog have? It sounds like, despite Yello's best efforts, the dog is not 'happy' in the immediate, sensual way that dogs are happy, nor does the dog have any great expectation of happiness, in that, sad to say, dogs really don't have expectations. If the dog stops living he's not been deprived of a future that he expected.

 

[hobbitonabike]

well put.

As luck would have it the cat I adore is sitting in a cage at the vets right now. I may bring him home tomorrow, or I may have him offed. The decision is mine to make, and my duty, as I see it, is to elicit from the vet how he will get on with kidney failure and diabetes. What I do know is this - he has no history in his little head. If I were on my last legs I'd be thinking about past pleasures, friendships, my family, riding over the Pyrennees or up to John O'Groats, buildings I've drawn and so on and so forth. I might even pen an apology or two. He won't have that luxury - all he has is the present and the notion that the big bald chap keeps him warm and fed. The sweet nature that has ladies of a certain vintage begging for medical bulletins (it took half an hour to get up the street this evening) is a thing of habit mixing survival instincts with a finely honed appreciation of what it takes to get loved up. He's not conscious of his own life story, and doesn't have a view on death. He may be able to distinguish the sound of my footstep from all the other city noises, and I can't help but be flattered when he comes down the street to meet me, but, he really doesn't see much beyond seventeen years of Science Diet, prawns and chicken slices, together with a bit of head petting and tummy tickling. He's adorable in the sense that people are able to adore him.

So my take on Yello's predicament is simply this. What life will the dog have? It sounds like, despite Yello's best efforts, the dog is not 'happy' in the immediate, sensual way that dogs are happy, nor does the dog have any great expectation of happiness, in that, sad to say, dogs really don't have expectations. If the dog stops living he's not been deprived of a future that he expected.

Is this not the 'human emotion' that you're putting on your cat? I'm glad you 100% know what goes on in an animals head. I think this is where the validity of your argument is starting to unravel. I respect your point of view if that is what you believe. However I find it arrogant of the human race to believe it knows what a species thinks and feels when we have no way of detailed communication. They may not think, rationalise and feel in the same way as we do but that does not mean they do not do it at all. And as for the dog doesn't know it's dead...that is the most ridiculous thing I ever heard!!! Animals forsense danger and death more than humans do. They know what's coming, they sense it. I have seen this myself in horses. It is my belief that the arrogance of humans sets all bars of measurements against our own where as it is like trying to measure two completely different things using the same scale of reference. We do not know everything and we need to stop acting like we do. I don't think we will ever agree on this but hey ho...wouldn't life be boring if we did!!!

 

[Cyclist33]

[QUOTE 2282076, member: 45"]Put a needle in front of a dog and he doesnt know whether its an inoculation or goodbye time.[/quote]

infinitely debatable assertion. i would in the first instance refer to the previous post to yours in which it's putatively plausible for dogs to both know and sense such distinctions. A second observation which seems self-evident is that if the awareness of one's imminent fate is a distinguishing factor in whether they should be put to sleep, then at what age is it appropriate to put an annoying child down, say if you couldnt handle your parental duties any more?

Stu

 

[Cyclist33]

i do think its amazing how well you seem to know your little cats history despite his own total lack of one! glad that you have that emotional detachment / death that allows you to get over it, or is it just a way of avoiding those guilty feelings that normally-tuned humans get?

well put.

As luck would have it the cat I adore is sitting in a cage at the vets right now. I may bring him home tomorrow, or I may have him offed. The decision is mine to make, and my duty, as I see it, is to elicit from the vet how he will get on with kidney failure and diabetes. What I do know is this - he has no history in his little head. If I were on my last legs I'd be thinking about past pleasures, friendships, my family, riding over the Pyrennees or up to John O'Groats, buildings I've drawn and so on and so forth. I might even pen an apology or two. He won't have that luxury - all he has is the present and the notion that the big bald chap keeps him warm and fed. The sweet nature that has ladies of a certain vintage begging for medical bulletins (it took half an hour to get up the street this evening) is a thing of habit mixing survival instincts with a finely honed appreciation of what it takes to get loved up. He's not conscious of his own life story, and doesn't have a view on death. He may be able to distinguish the sound of my footstep from all the other city noises, and I can't help but be flattered when he comes down the street to meet me, but, he really doesn't see much beyond seventeen years of Science Diet, prawns and chicken slices, together with a bit of head petting and tummy tickling. He's adorable in the sense that people are able to adore him.

So my take on Yello's predicament is simply this. What life will the dog have? It sounds like, despite Yello's best efforts, the dog is not 'happy' in the immediate, sensual way that dogs are happy, nor does the dog have any great expectation of happiness, in that, sad to say, dogs really don't have expectations. If the dog stops living he's not been deprived of a future that he expected.

 

[Cyclist33]

it's a dog. OK? A dog. It's not a human being, it's a dog. They are different items.

I adore dogs, but I know full well they're a mixed bunch, and sometimes they don't do the stuff they were put on this earth to do, which is to be a companion to humans. And sometimes they're a menace. And Yello is thinking 'what next?', as he has every reason to.

and i suppose god created the world 5000 years ago and it took six days or seven if you count sunday.

 

[Cyclist33]

it didnt sound to me like the op wanted a vets opinion and being a technical expert doesnt necessarily confer any emotional expertise, as is all too apparent in life.

stu

Yello, although I don't own a dog I've witnessed the turmoil and upset that comes from making the uncomfortable decisions about having a dog put to sleep. It's horrible and I feel for your current situation.

At the end of the day follow your instinct with what you think is right and think with your head not your heart, as hard as that may be.

People do, understandably, get emotional over issues like this but if I was in your position I'd be paying particular attention to the expert witness on here, Becs.

 

[Archie_tect]

What's the correct emotional response when a dog bites you hard enough and deep enough to remove flesh- it wasn't a warning nip.
[Ref original post: "He bit my face, taking a chunk of flesh..."]