Simple none GPS computer with odometer which also has gradient readings?

[bighipspeddler]

Thought that both distance traveled and gradients would be useful information to know. Gradient doesn't have to be instant, just what has been done on the trip which can be relayed anytime. I read that the more accurate ones would have a delay so this not a problem.

I fear that a computer with gradient must by necessity also have a bunch of bells and whistles I wouldn't want and thus a hefty price tag.

I also stipulate I don't want GPS as I like to be disconnected from the grid when riding. Same reason I choose to use paper maps rather than new fangled computers. These two things above though would be useful to me on a computer but nothing else.

Doing some initial digging computers with gradient readings have been available since at least the early 2000s so maybe I can pick up an old one somewhere if I know what names to look for? I also read that GPS ones are the most accurate but none GPS ones can be passable if you get the right one. The worst ones I have seen are the cheap spirit level ones and from reviews online are as bad as they look - very inaccurate and more just with forward motion of the rider or bumps.

Any ideas?

 

[si_c]

I'm not aware of any to be honest, but I think you'll struggle to find a non-GPS one that works.

Accuracy of GPS for elevation - and thus calculating a gradient from it - is very poor, satellites look down not from the side so the resolution of vertical changes is limited and prone to measurement inaccuracy. Most GPS enabled computers actually have a barometric altimeter which is used to calculate elevation changes and thus gradient fairly quickly.

You've noticed cheap options will likely be pretty terrible so something like a second hand Garmin Edge or Wahoo Element would be a good option but you've stipulated no GPS which rules them out.

 

[markemark]

How will a device know your gradient without gps? Some sort of pressure sensor or altometer? Not sure that’s even realistically possible.

 

[Ming the Merciless]

I also stipulate I don't want GPS as I like to be disconnected from the grid when riding

GPS isn’t being connected to the grid. It’s one way from the satellites, so your bike computer can work out your position (and elevation).

 

[presta]

https://sigma.bike/product/bc-14-0-wl/?v=15fc885b9ab6

 

[PpPete]

Or one of the little XOSS G+ ?
Button layout is better (IMO) than on the later G2/G3 models, although on the latter the gradient is on front screen

You would need extra wheel sensors to get distance/speed if you can find a unit without GPS - if they still exist; and I'm fairly sure gradient without GPS would be a non-starter.

 

[si_c]

How will a device know your gradient without gps? Some sort of pressure sensor or altometer? Not sure that’s even realistically possible.

Barometer. Most GPS bike computers have them because GPS is terrible at calculating altitude.

 

[presta]

There seem to be a lot of people confusing altitude and gradient. The Sigma computer I linked above does both, altitude comes from a barometer. You don't even need electronics for gradient:

 

[andrew_s]

https://sigma.bike/product/bc-14-0-wl/?v=15fc885b9ab6

beat me to it

Cycle computers with a barometer can be reasonably accurate for amount of climbing and gradient, but are less good for absolute altitude as you have to set them for the barometric altitude on a more or less daily basis as the air pressure changes.
That's OK for day rides from home, as you know the elevation of your house, or can at least find it out, but away from home on tour finding a known height to set it at can be less than easy.

I used to have a Ciclosport CM414 cycle computer/altimeter which I found very good, given fair weather. One time early on, I armed myself for the Cotswold Corker 100 km audax with a full set of spot heights from OS digital mapping and a contour count from 25 km mapping, and it gradually drifted up to read a whole 4m high over 125 km (including to/from home), and agreed with the contour count (about 1800 m) for total elevation gain, to within 15 m. Unfortunately it didn't survive a Lhasa to Kathmandu tour, vibrating off the handlebars relatively early on. At the time, the road was almost all gravel after the first 60 km, apart from in the larger towns, and quite badly washboarded in places.

 

[bighipspeddler]

...sigma...

Oh this one looks great, thanks for the heads up. Good simple visibility and the price is just the type of range I was looking for - sub £100 at £48. I have never taken an interest in bike computers so really don't know what sort of price I would be looking at for what functionality and feared something like gradient would be into the hundreds but apparently not!

On the first line on a review I found it sounds just like what I was looking for:

Good bike computer - without navigation and other bells and whistles

I specifically was not looking for navigation stuff too, to take away from the immersion (imo) of having a paper map/your wits. So just to clarify the functionality would be all in the device and no satellite or other 'pinging' to something none local are rather just the internal components?

There seem to be a lot of people confusing altitude and gradient. The Sigma computer I linked above does both, altitude comes from a barometer. You don't even need electronics for gradient:

Yes, that is the one I saw which I mentioned in the OP which looked tacky and reading reports inaccurate/too temperamental with bumping and acceleration.

Gonna read up more on this SIGMA as looking like it will suit a treat! even down to the tagline

all-rounder for mountain riders

Cheers!

 

[bighipspeddler]

...given fair weather

How was the ciclosport dependent on the weather? Was it because it was GPS based or are barometers also subject to the weather somehow?

 

[bighipspeddler]

Ohh I see there are loads of different models. I would choose the none wireless version preferably, with less to go round I would have thought. Also is the 14 the first model to offer gradient? Happy to choose older models if cheaper.

Lol it looks like they skipped version 13, with 12 then 14...superstition?

 

[bighipspeddler]

Hmm, strangely seems limited availability in the UK for the 14, yet the other models are in the usual bike retailers. Seems I would have to import. (Don't use amazon, where it is listed)

 

[bighipspeddler]

Sorry for so many posts, but new questions come as I am researching and not able to consolidate posts due to 10 minutes edit limit! The availability does seem very poor with this and not even able to get it sent via their site from Germany. Any other ones with similar price point and functionality which might be able to actually get hold of!

 

[andrew_s]

How was the ciclosport dependent on the weather? Was it because it was GPS based or are barometers also subject to the weather somehow?

The barometers measure air pressure.
That changes with altitude, hence the use for measuring elevation, but it also varies with the weather.

In weather forecasts they will talk about a high pressure zone (usually resulting in steady good weather for a few days, at least in summer). This will mean that an uncorrected barometric altimeter will read low heights. Similarly a weather forecast "low" will mean the uncorrected barometric altimeter will read higher heights.
If you get a storm front come through, with packed isobars (lines on the weather map that join places with the same air pressure, similar to contours), you can get the height reported by a non-moving barometric altimeter changing by 150 meters in a couple of hours, and it's relatively common for a reported height to change by 50 or 100 meters overnight.

Normal use would be to set the height in the morning, and just put up with the fact that it will be reading 25-50 meters out by the end of the ride.
It doesn't matter too much for gradients as the time period is too short for air pressure changes to have any effect, or for total climbing (apparent elevation gain) during the ride, as the error will be similar to the difference in start & end elevations (for a ride starting & finishing in the same place).

GPS altimeters tend to over-report climbing figures, sometimes by quite a lot, as the reported GPS height is subject to random errors. It doesn't take much of an error at the start & end of a 100m section to give a significant error in gradient, and adding the errors into the climbing figures can inflate them considerably.
Usually a GPS will apply some sort of smoothing to the heights and positions, but finding out what is impossible.

I remember one time in Spain when my barometric altimeter hadn't been set for about 3 days due the the absence of height information on Spanish maps, so at an 11s stop I asked a companion to leave his GPS on so that I could set my altimeter by his GPS. It was a bit of a failure, as, sitting at an outdoor cafe table, I watched the elevation reported by the GPS repeatedly drift up and down over a height range of 40 or 50 meters. After about 5 cycles, I just set "somewhere in the middle".