Smart energy meters, should I/shouldn't I?

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swansonj

Guru
:blush: Oh, gosh, I completely misinterpreted that. Sorry swansonj over missing your apology! There's defniitely no need for you to apologise once more for my own ineptitude - that's my fault, I should have read your post more carefully and wound my neck in.

And, yes, I do agree with you that smart grids are essential. We need to get on with defining the standards that'll be needed so that the grid and appliances can talk to each other - I doubt you'll disagree with me when I say that this is far more important than the current smart meter program! Currently [1], I'm of the belief that smart meters aren't required for a proper smart grid, but am willing to change my mind on the evidence. I do, however, see no need for the invasion of privacy - or the remote kill switch - the benefits of a smart grid require neither.

[1] That wasn't even planned as a pun....
There are some people on Cyclechat who are more interested in picking an argument than in ferreting out the points of common understanding. I knew you were not one of those; I would have been mortified if you had thought I was one such; and I think we have just demonstrated how seeming initial disagreements often disguise a much larger measure of agreement once the parameters of the debate are better understood. Multiple Big Hugs all round; the next time we're on a Friday together I'm buying you a drink; and the essay I still need to write is why Smart Meters, while not necessary for a basic Smart Grid, are necessary for the fully developed Smart Grid that our society needs if we are to avoid making climate change even worse than it's already going to be.
 

classic33

Leg End Member
There are some people on Cyclechat who are more interested in picking an argument than in ferreting out the points of common understanding. I knew you were not one of those; I would have been mortified if you had thought I was one such; and I think we have just demonstrated how seeming initial disagreements often disguise a much larger measure of agreement once the parameters of the debate are better understood. Multiple Big Hugs all round; the next time we're on a Friday together I'm buying you a drink; and the essay I still need to write is "Why Smart Meters, while not necessary for a basic Smart Grid, are necessary for the fully developed Smart Grid that our society needs if we are to avoid making climate change even worse than it's already going to be."
Title of the essay might need a big of work!
 

AndyRM

XOXO
Location
North Shields
We had one installed last Wednesday and it's gubbed our electricity somehow. Circuits keep tripping and some just can't be switched on without tripping the RCD.

We've had an electrician out since 10.30 this morning trying to work out what's going on...
 

midlife

Guru
I see British Gas are putting up the price of electric 12.5 percent. I guess that might make people think about turning some lights off....
 

swansonj

Guru
The promised essay.

My starting point is that we need smart grids, and smart meters are warranted by their role in enabling smart grids.

Consider some scenarios:
- the sun is shining at chateau @Drago and his solar panels are generating. But it's not shining elsewhere in the country. So we'd ideally like @Drago not to run his washing machine etc just yet but to export the maximum juice he can into the grid. We need to give him a financial incentive to agree to this - and we need a mechanism for signalling to him that this is what we'd like him to do.
- the strongest winds are moving from south to north across the country overnight. So ideally we'd like all the people in the south to get on and charge their electric cars as soon as possible, but the people in the north to delay starting charging till later in the night.
- a street of 200 homes now all have electric cars - but the electricity supply only has the capacity to charge 150 at once. If we rely on chance, we get away with it most of the time, but every now and again too many people try at once and a fuse blows. Either we upgrade the electricity supply- or we have a mechanism to coordinate the charging of cars.
- a ship drags an anchor over a submarine cable (or we have too many lightning strikes too quickly over the Pennines) and the UK looses a gigawatt of electricity instantaneously. Instead of having a power station sitting there all ready to generate at a moment's notice - the present situation - we simply delay charging everyone's electric cars for twenty minutes (or, if there aren't enough charging, ask those that are, to export from their batteries for a bit)

Note 1: it is common ground that this sort of functionality is way beyond what the current UK smart meter program is delivering - this is about future vision

Note 2: demand management delivered through frequency sensitivity could deliver the last scenario but not, I think, the others

Note 3: although I do happen to work in the industry, and although I had a very peripheral role in the smart meter program a few years ago, I am not an expert on system ops and I'm sure my colleagues who do would feel even my vision is distinctly limited

Note 4: batteries, as @McWobble correctly points out, are hard to envisage ever being rolled out to the extent necessary to solve our energy storage needs. But given that we're about to have a whole load of batteries connected to the grid for chunks of time anyway - in cars - we'd be crazy not to make what use of that we can. Other distributed storage is possible. There was a project on a Scottish island where they paid to insulate people's hot water tanks better, then, when the wind blew, they used the electricity to heat the water hotter than you usually would and store energy that way.
 

swansonj

Guru
Who happen to be part of the company behind the National Grid!
Not true.

Edit to be more informative: the national grid (as in the physical system) is owned and operated by National Grid (the company). National Grid is an independent company. It is not and never has been corporately connected with any supply company such as British Gas.
 
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classic33

Leg End Member
Not true.

Edit to be more informative: the national grid (as in the physical system) is owned and operated by National Grid (the company). National Grid is an independent company. It is not and never has been corporately connected with any supply company such as British Gas.
National Grid Transco.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Grid_plc
 
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Drago

Legendary Member
I want to use the power I've generated when it suits me to do so. That's the raison d'être of my solar, to be able to spank the power hungry appliances during the day pretty much for free.
 

swansonj

Guru
National Grid Transco.
National Grid Transco was a former name of what is now just National Grid. Neither then nor now was it owned by British Gas.

The Transco bit that merged with National Grid to form National Grid Transco had previously demerged from British Gas.

Trust me, National Grid is entirely separate from British Gas, RWE, SSE, Scottish Power, or any other supply company.
 
National Grid Transco was a former name of what is now just National Grid. Neither then nor now was it owned by British Gas.

The Transco bit that merged with National Grid to form National Grid Transco had previously demerged from British Gas.

Trust me, National Grid is entirely separate from British Gas, RWE, SSE, Scottish Power, or any other supply company.
All foreign owned aren't they?
 
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