Struggling to true a wheel

[wafter]

Currently working on the (first and last) mate's cheapo bike I've stupidly agreed to recomission.

Trued the front wheel earlier with no dramas, took it out for a cursory test ride (pretty shocking) and found the wheel well pished when I got back. Had another go at it and I must have spent literally hours chasing significant deflection around the wheel. It's gently "taco'd" / "pringled" with a single point extreme deviation to each side; with maybe half an inch total runout.

I'm working my way around the rim trying to pull it into line (either tightening and looseing adjacent spokes, just tightening one side or just loosening one side) - nothing works. It seems like the shape and runout of the rim remain, but the points of worst deflection move around the rim. Twice I've tried slackening off all the spokes and starting again, but I just can't get it straight

The only "odd" thing is that the nipples are reluctant to turn on the spokes; all are free and have been treated with paraffin and oil, however when attempting to turn them there's a certain amount of torsional flex in the spokes before the nipple finally turns on the thread with a ping. I'm wondering if this is somehow limiting my ability to fine-tune tension?

Were it my own bike I'd strip it down, clean and grease all the threads, however since it's not (and it's already taken me far longer than I'd anticipated to make ultimately very little progress) I just want a bloody quick fix.

Thoughts gratefully received!

 

[Peter Salt]

Rim or disc? Material? Circular cross-section spokes?

What you wrote about the spokes getting stuck and spinning with the nipples, sounds like a plausible root cause. My suspicion is that you true the wheel and all is good in the stand, then go out, and when the wheel gets weight put on it, as the tension gets released, the stuck spokes spin, changing the tension. That said, that's a massive runout, so probably more factors at play?

I would suggest maybe truing in the stand again, then wrapping some masking tape around all of the spokes - so that it all points to one direction, giving it a test, and checking if any of that tape now points somewhere else - indicating that the spoke has twisted.

 

[presta]

the nipples are reluctant to turn on the spokes; all are free and have been treated with paraffin and oil, however when attempting to turn them there's a certain amount of torsional flex in the spokes before the nipple finally turns on the thread with a ping

Even with brand new DT Competition spokes and nipples, greased at the point of assembly, I get some sticking and others not.

I'm wondering if this is somehow limiting my ability to fine-tune tension?

It will, because you can't know exactly how far the spoke recoils, which is why I always mark my spokes with a felt tip after lacing but before tensioning, that way you can see exactly how much adjustment you're making, and unwind the torsion by sight instead of feel. It only takes a minute to mark them, so it's quicker, easier, and more accurate.

I'd be inclined to loosen all the spokes and start again, after checking that the rim's true to start with.

 

[wafter]

Thanks both

Rim or disc? Material? Circular cross-section spokes?

What you wrote about the spokes getting stuck and spinning with the nipples, sounds like a plausible root cause. My suspicion is that you true the wheel and all is good in the stand, then go out, and when the wheel gets weight put on it, as the tension gets released, the stuck spokes spin, changing the tension. That said, that's a massive runout, so probably more factors at play?

I would suggest maybe truing in the stand again, then wrapping some masking tape around all of the spokes - so that it all points to one direction, giving it a test, and checking if any of that tape now points somewhere else - indicating that the spoke has twisted.

Rim brake, Chinesium aluminium alloy, boggo (probably unbutted) round section spokes.

The ride killed it, however since then I've spent hours with the bike up-ended (council truing stand ) trying to get it straight, but I can't even achieve that now.

My expectation was that I'd just be able to gently rein in the deflection, but it seems to remain the same and just change location. Interesting thought about the masking tape; although it seems that I'm stuck with some arbitrary amount of nipple displacement defined by the spoke winding up and finally snapping round on the thread to some random point.

Even with brand new DT Competition spokes and nipples, greased at the point of assembly, I get some sticking and others not.

It will, because you can't know exactly how far the spoke recoils, which is why I always mark my spokes with a felt tip after lacing but before tensioning, that way you can see exactly how much adjustment you're making, and unwind the torsion by sight instead of feel. It only takes a minute to mark them, so it's quicker, easier, and more accurate.

I'd be inclined to loosen all the spokes and start again, after checking that the rim's true to start with.

Tbh my other stuff has generally been pretty good in this regard; this however has been a nightmare. Not sure whether it's because of material choice / quality, corrosion or perhaps my choice of paraffin to penetrate into the threads (it's light but still an oil though, no..?).

As above, interesting point about the pen. I've already loosened the spokes twice and I don't think the rim's that true to start with, but then that's the point of winding the spokes in, is it not?

The only other thought I can muster is that there's too much spoke tension so the rim can't describe a circle and deflects (effectively buckling as a result). Looks like I'll be slackening them all off and trying again.. although I don't really expect any different outcome.

I'm no wheel expert but have trued quite a few and rebuilt a couple.. this really has me foxed, however..

 

[Ming the Merciless]

You’ve fallen in the trap of taking on a job, before you truly knew what was really involved 😆

 

[wafter]

You’ve fallen in the trap of taking on a job, before you truly knew what was really involved 😆

Indeed. On the face of it, it didn't look like a lot... sadly not reflected in the reality. A lot of the problems I suspect are because it's borderline-BSO...

The only certainty is that I'll not ever make this mistake again!

 

[All uphill]

The only other thought I can muster is that there's too much spoke tension so the rim can't describe a circle and deflects (effectively buckling as a result

This was my first thought. My (limited) experience is that cheap wheels sometimes have relatively low spoke tensions; in your position I'd be inclined to destroy it with fire build the wheel true and tight, then back off spoke tension quarter of a turn on each spoke, check for trueness and then test it again.

Someone will no doubt be along to say this is a rubbish idea.

 

[Ajax Bay]

You have to reduce the friction (under any tension) between spoke and nipple threads. It's not clear how you used the 'fin to clean either.
I would completely unscrew each nipple in turn, smear grease on the threads of the spoke and tighten back up.
Repeat 31/35 times. If that's too much then, on the rear, so not this, just do the 15/17 other RH spokes, which will require 50% higher tension.
Now when you true it you'll get far less (or even no spoke twist).
Once it's 'as good as' give the wheel a mega-squeeze across one diameter and then at 90o. This is what's happening when you ride it (wheel under load).
Retweak and hopefully job done.

 

[wafter]

Thanks both - appreciate the responses and will keep all that in mind for the next time I have to true a troublesome rim

I've just come back in from wasting another couple of hours on this worthless POS, and at least have the wheel running acceptably "true".

In the end I backed off all nipples until I could see 2-3 threads on the spoke, doused thread and nipple in oil (to lube the thread and head within the rim) then went round tightening each a couple of turns. It became apparant that some required a lot more displacement than others, and I found myself chasing the deflection around the rim again. Finally, out of desparation I started winding down the areas of greatest deflection hard on the nipples.. this initially gave a very ripply wheel but seemed to reduce the total deflection. I did notice that it introduced some radial deflection / a flat on the wheel, so I tried to locate these areas and re-align by reducing tension on the spokes on both sides, with some success.

Takeaways are that the oil seemed to do a reasonable job of reducing the stickyness when tightening the nipples, while I think the root cause was probably that the rim was as bent as a nine bob note to start with. I've not ridden it again yet (it's a horrible experience) but fingers' crossed it'll remain reasonably true.

I had considered Apollo bikes about as low as you could go before BSO; however after this experience (along with other facets of attempting to work on this bike) I'd now suggest that it belongs in the BSO catagory / in the local scrapper / at the bottom of the canal.

Never again!

 

[Ajax Bay]

I now suggest that Apollo bikes belong in the BSO category / in the local scrapper / at the bottom of the canal.

Confess when you shared that image (other thread) on Tuesday, I restrained myself. There is such a thing as compassion fatigue/erosion.
Well done getting the wheel somewhat round and true.

 

[Ian H]

If the rim, sans spokes, was twisted to any significant degree then you'd have a problem. Best in such a case to throw the rim away try to manually bend it back to shape, then re-tension.

 

[wafter]

Confess when you shared that image (other thread) on Tuesday, I restrained myself. There is such a thing as compassion fatigue/erosion.
Well done getting the wheel somewhat round and true.

Thanks and yes, my compassion is certainly fatigued after this experience - best I can do is learn from it I guess.

It certainly goes to show how much better old, cheap bikes are than newer alternatives.

If the rim, sans spokes, was twisted to any significant degree then you'd have a problem. Best in such a case to throw the rim away try to manually bend it back to shape, then re-tension.

Thanks - it's odd be because it was fairly straight when the bike came to me, however went decidedly squirly after only a short ride. Really need to test it again but not looking forward to it..

 

[Ian H]

Thanks and yes, my compassion is certainly fatigued after this experience - best I can do is learn from it I guess.

It certainly goes to show how much better old, cheap bikes are than newer alternatives.




Thanks - it's odd be because it was fairly straight when the bike came to me, however went decidedly squirly after only a short ride. Really need to test it again but not looking forward to it..

Could be some spokes loose, or just woefully undertensioned.

 

[figbat]

Could be some spokes loose, or just woefully undertensioned.

That was my thinking too - my approach is to check for and create even spoke tension around the wheel, then correct for any out-of-true.

 

[fossyant]

This was probably the answer.

https://www.halfords.com/cycling/bi...MI75you7PH_wIV2OPtCh3jIAgbEAQYBCABEgKgAvD_BwE