Surgery you don't consent to

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shouldbeinbed

Rollin' along
Location
Manchester way
Don't know if its relevant or not but when my dad had his big cancer op (2001), they found other problems mid way through, they kept working on the bits they had consent for and sent someone out to call my mum as NOK for her consent to extend the remit and deal with the unexpected finds without having to close him up, wake him up, explain and receive his consent and go back in at a later date.

not really sure I'm understanding the nuances of the situation you find yourself in @classic33 but it sound pretty grim and all ways up I hope it works out for you health wise and having your needs and wishes respected.
 

Pat "5mph"

A kilogrammicaly challenged woman
Moderator
Location
Glasgow
@classic33 this is getting stranger by the day ... sorry!
Are you trying to say you are in a hospital/care home or similar now?
Are you worried they will just put you under and operate without your consent?
Surely this would be highly unethical, also illegal.
Google yourself a lawyer, there is no real need but it will reassure your fears.
If you are not in a hospital now, just don't go to the surgery appointment, nobody can force you, nobody will come get you.
 
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classic33

classic33

Leg End Member
On one sheet its an "Advanced Directive" on the other its as given earlier. Same letter.
These have been requested by the hospital.

Its the first time I've been in this posistion. And getting a straight answer is proving impossible.

To give an example, from today. The hospital where the surgery is planned, doesn't appear any where on written record. It is the same place I was told would be doing it. Official records show a different hospital & department.
 
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midlife

Guru
You don't need to fill one in, a "living will" is optional and has nothing to do with the infirmed consent to the operation which should be done in consultation with the hospital staff. It can be helpful as it let's the staff know if you want to be resuscitated and the like.

If you have any questions then you need to speak to the consultant in charge of your care. Its what we get paid to do.

Shaun
 
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classic33

classic33

Leg End Member
You don't need to fill one in, a "living will" is optional and has nothing to do with the infirmed consent to the operation which should be done in consultation with the hospital staff. It can be helpful as it let's the staff know if you want to be resuscitated and the like.

If you have any questions then you need to speak to the consultant in charge of your care. Its what we get paid to do.

Shaun
The request for the forms has been made by one hospital.
The consultant in charge of treatment at the hospital where treatment will be carried out, is unknown at present. I get to find out who that will be on the day, not before.

I've said that I've never been placed in this position before. So if people are finding it hard to believe, I can only go on what I've beenn given. Trying to second guess what they actually want is impossible. Therefore no attempt has been made.

They have started asking for forms, not me.
 
It sounds like some of your medical and potentially legal paperwork is missing (medical records frequently go missing ime, I have over 1/3 of mine missing and my new dr has been entirely reliant on what I know and had had to write to various hospitals requesting information that my drs notes should have had in them but didn't, or get repeat blood tests done to confirm little things like I'm steroid dependent and can't stop taking them).

If that is the case, and certain all important pieces of paperwork are missing, you should at least be able to get the surgery delayed until it is cleared up giving time for better explanations, information, consultation and generally talking about it. Best wishes Classic33
 

midlife

Guru
Sounds like you have been assessed by one multidisciplinary clinic and referred to a different centre of excellence. Our hospital has a number of major clinics covering lung, thyroid, breast, skin, sarcoma, brain etc. The one I get involved in is the head and neck clinic. We have a video conference with another hospital, a total of perhaps 35 individuals including surgeons, radiologists, pathologists, oncologists, nurse specialists, palliative care, psychologists and a whole lot more. They decide on what they think is the best treatment and that is offered. Could be in house, local, nationwide or in the case of proton beam, abroad.

For example the best treatment might be by robot in Newcastle and you will be referred there to meet the team, go over treatment and take it from there.

There is nothing underhand, just go along and meet the treatment team that is looking after you at the unit you have been referred to.

Not sure the GP will be able to answer your questions.

Shaun
 

craigwend

Grimpeur des terrains plats
@classic33 agree 100% with regulator - you can't be operated on without consent if you have capacity (re: MCA)
The Advance Decision (actual current legal term though many trust still mis-quote as 'directive) or even giving Lasting Power of Attorney (Care - not finance) - would only apply if you' lose capacity' of which you don't appear you have ...

Simply don't turn up* (though cancel to free up a space) - no chance of even 'implied consent' being misused ,,,

The only way to challenge this* would be a length legal battle at the Court of Protection, which from your post seems about as much chance as (make up the next line)

Go see your GP & discuss, as understandably you appear uber anxious - with the 'threatened op' & more importantly the treatment you need.


Ps - re physical health interventions under the Mental Health Act - the only interventions can be for the mental health disorder detained any other physical intervention would have to involve the MCA

PPS - Incapacitated patients under the MCA & MHA have legal advocates provided on their behalf to defend their rights
 
OP
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classic33

classic33

Leg End Member
The surgery is seen by the consultant (who said it would be done, regardless of what I felt about it) as a "kill or cure measure, medication isn't working as it should". Assuming this last part means that the epilepsy is still not fully controlled. As has been the case all my life.
For those who have said they do this every day, would you say that to someone?
The same consultant made the referral, to the other hospital, not my GP.
The hospital is the one making the requests for me to seek legal help. Its they who have said what they require from me, paperwork wise.
I'm aware of the consent side of things. But I've never been told that something will be done, "whether I consent to it or not".
Not turning up for the appointment is one thing, but I've been placed under the care of another consultant in this matter for all future care of the condition. Just failing to turn up isn't as simple as it sounds. See another consultant that's what's been done for me.
If nothing is going to be done, surgery wise. Why this sudden rush for requests for paperwork? Hospital have refused to answer this question.

For those who feel I'm missing things out, I've left only names and what isn't known out. The only assumption I have made has been given above. The rest has either been said to me or presented to me in letters.

I've read everything that's been posted here, but not always answered. The one thing in my favour, is that in '95, due to to a reaction with the anesthetic(s), I "popped my clogs" on the operating table & surgery was stopped. That I found out the following day on the ward. Appendix removed, operation carried out as emergency surgery as I entered Status Epilepticus when first being seen at the hospital. Not an uncommon state for me.
It made surgery for cancer four years later awkward. Cancelled once, and then delayed because they had trouble finding someone willing to perform it.

Rocky, regards my concerns. The most reported case.
"Destruction of both right and left hippocampus produces far greater deficits than might be predicted from the results noted above. Many years ago, a neurosurgeon operated on a patient who had epileptic foci in both right and left temporal lobes and destroyed both right and left hippocampus.

H.M. is now forty-seven years old. He cannot recognize his next-door neighbors, because his family moved to the present house twenty years ago, shortly after his operation. Once, when a psychologist who was driving him back from a medical center asked him to help her find the house, he guided her to a street that he said was quite familiar to him, though he admitted it was not the right address. The psychologist then called his mother and learned they were on the street where H.M. had lived as a child, before his operation. During his stay at the medical center, he had kept ringing for the night nurse, and with repeated apologies asked her over and over again where he was and how he came to be there. His doctors noticed that if they walked out of the room for even a few minutes and then returned, he did not know them-they had to be introduced to him all over again. Now H.M. sits at home, alone with his aged mother, next to old issues of the Reader's Digest, which seem eternally new to him. Everything he reads vanishes from his mind, as if a slate had been wiped clean. (From Maya Pines, The Brain Changers, reprinted with permission of Harcourt, Brace, Jovanovich, Inc.)

H.M.'s immediate memory is normal, as is his long-term memory for events more than several years before the operation. The problem is with his short-term memory and thus his ability to form new long-term memories."

http://www.williamcalvin.com/Bk1/bk1ch6.htm

Added what happened prior to "popping my clogs" on the operating table, including link.
 
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The surgery is seen by the consultant (who said it would be done, regardless of what I felt about it) as a "kill or cure measure, medication isn't working as it should". Assuming this last part means that the epilepsy is still not fully controlled. As has been the case all my life.
For those who have said they do this every day, would you say that to someone?
The same consultant made the referral, to the other hospital, not my GP.
The hospital is the one making the requests for me to seek legal help. Its they who have said what they require from me, paperwork wise.
I'm aware of the consent side of things. But I've never been told that something will be done, "whether I consent to it or not".
Not turning up for the appointment is one thing, but I've been placed under the care of another consultant in this matter for all future care of the condition. Just failing to turn up isn't as simple as it sounds. See another consultant that's what's been done for me.
If nothing is going to be done, surgery wise. Why this sudden rush for requests for paperwork? Hospital have refused to answer this question.

For those who feel I'm missing things out, I've left only names and what isn't known out. The only assumption I have made has been given above. The rest has either been said to me or presented to me in letters.

I've read everything that's been posted here, but not always answered. The one thing in my favour, is that in '95, due to to a reaction with the anesthetic(s), I "popped my clogs" on the operating table & surgery was stopped. That I found out the following day on the ward. Appendix removed, operation carried out as emergency surgery as I entered Status Epilepticus when first being seen at the hospital. Not an uncommon state for me.
It made surgery for cancer four years later awkward. Cancelled once, and then delayed because they had trouble finding someone willing to perform it.

Rocky, regards my concerns. The most reported case.
"Destruction of both right and left hippocampus produces far greater deficits than might be predicted from the results noted above. Many years ago, a neurosurgeon operated on a patient who had epileptic foci in both right and left temporal lobes and destroyed both right and left hippocampus.

H.M. is now forty-seven years old. He cannot recognize his next-door neighbors, because his family moved to the present house twenty years ago, shortly after his operation. Once, when a psychologist who was driving him back from a medical center asked him to help her find the house, he guided her to a street that he said was quite familiar to him, though he admitted it was not the right address. The psychologist then called his mother and learned they were on the street where H.M. had lived as a child, before his operation. During his stay at the medical center, he had kept ringing for the night nurse, and with repeated apologies asked her over and over again where he was and how he came to be there. His doctors noticed that if they walked out of the room for even a few minutes and then returned, he did not know them-they had to be introduced to him all over again. Now H.M. sits at home, alone with his aged mother, next to old issues of the Reader's Digest, which seem eternally new to him. Everything he reads vanishes from his mind, as if a slate had been wiped clean. (From Maya Pines, The Brain Changers, reprinted with permission of Harcourt, Brace, Jovanovich, Inc.)

H.M.'s immediate memory is normal, as is his long-term memory for events more than several years before the operation. The problem is with his short-term memory and thus his ability to form new long-term memories."

http://www.williamcalvin.com/Bk1/bk1ch6.htm

Added what happened prior to "popping my clogs" on the operating table, including link.
Not wishing to be seen as devils advocate, but that article has a copyright of 1980 making the case at least 35 years old or more. It's a 1 off worst case scenario. Surgical techniques have advanced considerably in that time, especially in brain surgery. My godmother's husband was an very senior brain surgeon in the UK until quite recently.

Perhaps your best option is to speak with the new consultant. Ring his/her secretary and ask for an appointment with them before the operation explaining you have concerns (but not going into detail over the phone).

You will find they are human. Just yesterday I did exactly the same for a new referral that had taken 10 months to come through marked urgent! Speaking with the appointments line I was told categorically that I could not change it because they had to see me within a certain time scale which ended a week after that appointment. No leaway no helpfulness, nothing despite the fact I can't currently even get to my gp surgery let alone a hospital in Manchester. So I rang the switchboard, asked for the consultants secretary, explained the situation and she said no problem, she would get the appointment changed for me, when did I thibk I might be able to travel again? May did not through her in the slightest!
 
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@classic33 I understand you are very worried, but just the opening line in the link TMN provides would leave me dismissing that as a risk

Henry Molaison, known by thousands of psychology students as "HM," lost his memory on an operating table in a hospital in Hartford, in August 1953
the operation took place over 61 years ago. Medicine has come on a very long way since then even in epilepsy and its treatment and understanding and as stated by both the article and TMN has never been repeated on both hippocampus glands.
 
As a thought...

Most Hospitals have a PALS (Patient Advice Liaison Centre) or similar department for this.

They should be able to provide advice, and in some cases an advocate for the patient
 

Chromatic

Legendary Member
Location
Gloucestershire
The surgery is seen by the consultant (who said it would be done, regardless of what I felt about it) as a "kill or cure measure, medication isn't working as it should". Assuming this last part means that the epilepsy is still not fully controlled. As has been the case all my life.
For those who have said they do this every day, would you say that to someone?
The same consultant made the referral, to the other hospital, not my GP.
The hospital is the one making the requests for me to seek legal help. Its they who have said what they require from me, paperwork wise.
I'm aware of the consent side of things. But I've never been told that something will be done, "whether I consent to it or not".
Not turning up for the appointment is one thing, but I've been placed under the care of another consultant in this matter for all future care of the condition. Just failing to turn up isn't as simple as it sounds. See another consultant that's what's been done for me.
If nothing is going to be done, surgery wise. Why this sudden rush for requests for paperwork? Hospital have refused to answer this question.

For those who feel I'm missing things out, I've left only names and what isn't known out. The only assumption I have made has been given above. The rest has either been said to me or presented to me in letters.

I've read everything that's been posted here, but not always answered. The one thing in my favour, is that in '95, due to to a reaction with the anesthetic(s), I "popped my clogs" on the operating table & surgery was stopped. That I found out the following day on the ward. Appendix removed, operation carried out as emergency surgery as I entered Status Epilepticus when first being seen at the hospital. Not an uncommon state for me.
It made surgery for cancer four years later awkward. Cancelled once, and then delayed because they had trouble finding someone willing to perform it.

Rocky, regards my concerns. The most reported case.
"Destruction of both right and left hippocampus produces far greater deficits than might be predicted from the results noted above. Many years ago, a neurosurgeon operated on a patient who had epileptic foci in both right and left temporal lobes and destroyed both right and left hippocampus.

H.M. is now forty-seven years old. He cannot recognize his next-door neighbors, because his family moved to the present house twenty years ago, shortly after his operation. Once, when a psychologist who was driving him back from a medical center asked him to help her find the house, he guided her to a street that he said was quite familiar to him, though he admitted it was not the right address. The psychologist then called his mother and learned they were on the street where H.M. had lived as a child, before his operation. During his stay at the medical center, he had kept ringing for the night nurse, and with repeated apologies asked her over and over again where he was and how he came to be there. His doctors noticed that if they walked out of the room for even a few minutes and then returned, he did not know them-they had to be introduced to him all over again. Now H.M. sits at home, alone with his aged mother, next to old issues of the Reader's Digest, which seem eternally new to him. Everything he reads vanishes from his mind, as if a slate had been wiped clean. (From Maya Pines, The Brain Changers, reprinted with permission of Harcourt, Brace, Jovanovich, Inc.)

H.M.'s immediate memory is normal, as is his long-term memory for events more than several years before the operation. The problem is with his short-term memory and thus his ability to form new long-term memories."

http://www.williamcalvin.com/Bk1/bk1ch6.htm

Added what happened prior to "popping my clogs" on the operating table, including link.

These two statements seem to be contradictory.
 
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