Survey: LED Turn Signals

[Markymark]

I can't remember a time I ever thought "Hey, I wish I knew *less* about what that road user is going to do" personally, but ymmv.

Easy. If I indicate to turn left it can give the car behind me who may also want to turn left the idea that he'll beat me to it and left hook me. Likewise car coming the other way cutting in front of me to turn right.

If I DON'T indicate, they think I'll be passing across the left turning and less chance of cutting me up.

Ultimately , if the car doesn't know where I'm going, they more leeway they'll give me, the more they think they know exactly where I'm going, the more chance of doing some stupid manoeuvre giving me little space.

 

[John the Monkey]

Easy. If I indicate to turn left it can give the car behind me who may also want to turn left the idea that he'll beat me to it and left hook me. Likewise car coming the other way cutting in front of me to turn right.

Eh, I reckon they might do that anyway, if they're that kind of driver, tbh.

Ultimately , if the car doesn't know where I'm going, they more leeway they'll give me, the more they think they know exactly where I'm going, the more chance of doing some stupid manoeuvre giving me little space.

Like I say, ymmv. I reckon the careful people giving you room b/c you're unpredictable would probably give you that room if you indicated anyway.

The stupid people would be stupid either way, and also say "Ah but he never indicated, so I thought I was ok."

Happy agreeing to disagree though, innit.

 

[Markymark]

I find there's plenty of cars that would't plough through me but would try and overtake me if I'm turning left as they assume I'll take a gutter-hugging line which I don't.

 

[Mr Quick]

I really appreciate all the replies everyone, thank you.
GentlyBenevolent, their hasn't been any research directly stating that performing hand signals is a major factor, however I wouldn't rule it out. During my research, a very good source was the ROSPA Factsheet which I will link below:

http://www.rospa.com/roadsafety/advice/cycling/info/cycling_accidents_factsheet.pdf

Things such as ‘poor turn/manoeuvre’ is what I wanted to focus on with LED turn Signals. It could be argued that cyclists who aren't comfortable using hand signals while on the move, LED turn Signals can provide the option to still alert others and be in full control. I guess to more experienced cyclists this might seem rather excessive, since they are used to hand signals and it's not the only reason for poor turns and such.

 

[GentlyBenevolent]

Hi Mr Q,

Thanks for linking the PDF. From a brief read through (and not through the references) it suggests that the most common causes of accidents are "motorist emerging into path of cyclist" or "motorist turning across path of cyclist", with other emphasis on this being at junctions (particularly T junctions), during rush hours and more in the autumn/winter months (on a per-mile-travelled basis).

While I agree it does mention a "poor turn" I do think you should qualify what this means. My interpretation of the data implies that motorists either don't care* about the cyclist, assume they will give way regardless of right or just don't see cyclists.

This leads me to be concerned about LED turn signals / brake lights, and other items that make a cycle look more like a car. Motorists will see another car type vehicle and assume a "bump" won't matter, certainly they won't be thinking they could cripple (or worse) someone. Cycle lighting should reinforce the shape of the cyclist to aid recognition, emphasising the silhouette. To me, a wristband light would be preferable to a bike-mounted signal (better lateral seperation), but to have to press buttons to get the right light to flash, then cancel it, and have to keep it all charged seems a lot of added complication. A £1 LED + reflective wristband from Lidl would perform just as well, be far cheaper and far less complicated. Ultimately, this will be your competition if you are going to make this thing.

*By this I mean they see a cyclist as a "thing" of little consequence, rather than a person, and don't consider that the cyclist may not behave just like a motor vehicle.

 

[lukasran]

http://zackees.com/ try these on for size.

 

[Davidc]

An indicator on a bike may only be seen by the car directly behind or in front as the bike is rather narrow.

Anyway, I don't like indicating as it just gives motorists an opportunity to try and beat me - the ambiguous route I may take without indicating acts in my favour as the cars give me more space because they don;t know where I'm going!

Failing to make your intentions absolutely crystal clear to all other road users has two likely effects. Firstly it massively increases your chances of being hit, secondly it massively decreases your chances of getting compensation if you are hit.

As for indicators on bikes - why does anyone think we need them. My arm stuck out with day-glow yellow backed gloves with reflective bits as well for the dark are perfectly clear enough provided drivers are awake and looking. (Most are but there are exceptions).

 

[Markymark]

Failing to make your intentions absolutely crystal clear to all other road users has two likely effects. Firstly it massively increases your chances of being hit, secondly it massively decreases your chances of getting compensation if you are hit.

As for indicators on bikes - why does anyone think we need them. My arm stuck out with day-glow yellow backed gloves with reflective bits as well for the dark are perfectly clear enough provided drivers are awake and looking. (Most are but there are exceptions).

Nonsense. Not indicating means motorists don't assume the path they think I'll take abd give me the space as someone who may go any direction. It's the same effect as wobbly cyclists get more room as a the motorist assumes a confident cyclist holding a certain line and passes closer.

Think of it like this, you see a car slowing and looking lost. Do you slow, keep back, become more aware and get ready to react to their every move? That's how I want motorists to be around me.

Don't get me wrong there's plenty of scenarios it's wise to indicate, where your change of direction requires other riad users to slow down for example. But a left turn can be dangerous if signalled as its nit really necessary and is often seen as an opportunity for a following car to overtake you in the turn or left hook you.

 

[slowmotion]

There is a school of thought which says that the" bigger" and wobblier you are, the safer you will be. By "bigger" they mean flapping clothes and outstretched arms. Motorists notice those things. They tend not to notice LEDs. My arm extends about 3 feet from my saddle. No LED is going to do that.

 

[Davidc]

Nonsense. Not indicating means motorists don't assume the path they think I'll take abd give me the space as someone who may go any direction. It's the same effect as wobbly cyclists get more room as a the motorist assumes a confident cyclist holding a certain line and passes closer.

Think of it like this, you see a car slowing and looking lost. Do you slow, keep back, become more aware and get ready to react to their every move? That's how I want motorists to be around me.

Don't get me wrong there's plenty of scenarios it's wise to indicate, where your change of direction requires other riad users to slow down for example. But a left turn can be dangerous if signalled as its nit really necessary and is often seen as an opportunity for a following car to overtake you in the turn or left hook you.

Over 50 years of very mixed cycling experience says you are totally wrong. Being crystal clear, especially with signals, and particularly in city traffic, means that drivers make extra effort to avoid you and let you go where you intend to in safety. I've found this to be particularly the case in busy cities such as London and Bristol.

I hope that your choice not to be clear doesn't result in a driver, not sure of your intentions, failing to give you room, and as a result hitting you.

The wobbly cyclist trick does work though. Always very useful when using lanes other than the nearside one. Seems to deter drivers from trying to overtake at all.

 

[Markymark]

Over 50 years of very mixed cycling experience says you are totally wrong. Being crystal clear, especially with signals, and particularly in city traffic, means that drivers make extra effort to avoid you and let you go where you intend to in safety. I've found this to be particularly the case in busy cities such as London and Bristol.

I hope that your choice not to be clear doesn't result in a driver, not sure of your intentions, failing to give you room, and as a result hitting you.

The wobbly cyclist trick does work though. Always very useful when using lanes other than the nearside one. Seems to deter drivers from trying to overtake at all.

I hope your choice doesn't result in a driver left hooking you either. I wonder why you think the wobbly cyclist trick works as all it is is a cyclist taking an unknown path abd the driver giving them more space.

 

[Davidc]

I hope your choice doesn't result in a driver left hooking you either. I wonder why you think the wobbly cyclist trick works as all it is is a cyclist taking an unknown path abd the driver giving them more space.

Left hooks are reserved for when you're going straight on therefore not signalling at all. Defensive riding is the only defence against those. Deliberate wobbling defines a wider road occupation not an unknown path.

When I have any problem at a turn I might review my total clarity policy, but I've had no cause to do so in the last half million or so cycling miles.

 

[Markymark]

I've had people overtake me when turning left on the turn, I call them left hooks. That may be the wrong term but it's a very real problem. Also had cars try the same when turning right and cars trying to beat me from the opposite direction.

 

[Markymark]

Here

4 pages agreeing and disagreeing with it.

 

[Davidc]

Here

4 pages agreeing and disagreeing with it.

Left hooks are where someone goes past you and turns left when you're going straight on. What you've described is a lousy bit of overtaking while doing a left turn. I'm usually half a car's width out from the side when turning left and give a very clear signal. The combination nearly always results in cars staying behind until past the turn.

It's up to you how you ride, but if you're having problems have a look at Cyclecraft. Good advice on road positioning which prevents anyone overtaking you during a left turn. As for overtaking when you do a right turn, that's idiotic enough driving that signalling or not is unlikely to make a difference. I've had that on a motorbike but not a pedal cycle but don't doubt it happens. Did have one occasion when a taxi driver went round the right hand side of a traffic light island while I was waiting for the light to change to turn right, again no amount of signalling or otherwise would alter that driving behaviour.

My most common cause for near misses has always been drivers pulling out of turnings on the left when I'm approaching them, needless to say not signalling because I'm going straight on. Can result in retrospective hand signals not shown in the HC.