Sustrans routes

[wafflycat]

Sustrans don't provide the alternatives - the alternatives are already there as part of the road network. A swift look at a road map will enlighten as to what is likely to be a busy road or not. I find OS maps exceedingly useful in this regard and they've been around for donkey's years more than Sustrans.

What I particularly don't like about Sustrans:-

1.Sustrans, derived from 'sustainable transport' Yet Sustrans appear to put emphasis on leisure rather than sustainable transport routes.

2. Sustrans emphasis on equating safe with 'traffic-free' thus painting the erroneous picture that cycling on roads where there is traffic is unsafe, when in the great scheme of things, it isn't. It paints a false picture of the real level of danger cycling on road. Also, it effectively emphasises the erroneous belief by too many non-cyclists that cyclists have no place on the roads, but should be relegated to farcilities off the road.

Example:- part of NCN 13 is not far from me. It's the route between Dereham & Fakenham. As a local resident I simply cannot understand the reasoning behind the choice of route. It adds miles to the journey - which sort of puts the 'sustainable transport' bit out of the window. Nor does it take a route that is any quieter or more 'traffic-free' than the many alternative routes available. Plus on the shared-use farcilities bit of some of the route there are barriers across the route including concrete bollards and junctions which increase risk to cyclists due to how they've been positioned.

 

[vernon]

Most interesting, especially as I have been wearing the hat for some time. To my knowledge (and please correct me if I am wrong) I have not become brainwashed, nor have I once spoken of any agenda. I actually resent the comment made by Marinyork and wounder if he could qualify it?

In my area Sustrans have taken over the management of one of (if not) the largest Trails in South Wales, namely "The Taff Trail" It is kept clear of debris and flooding, erosion etc is dealt with in a very timely fashion. These Trails are a pleasure tyo cycle on.

The Taff Trail is not so friendly towards touring cyclists with panniers when it comes to negotiating the frequent labyrinth barriers at the Merthyr Tydfil/ Cardiff end of the trail. It is the worst bit of any Sustrans route that I have ridden on for interrupting a potentially pleasant and continuous ride because of this. Oh, I forgot about the several sets of steps that have to be negotiated too thankfully they were downwards towards Cardiff - I'd have hated pushing carrying my bike up them on my way towards Brecon.

Apart from that I have enjoyed most of the Sustrans routes that I have cycled.

 

[Angelfishsolo]

I have never found the gates to be a problem and find them preferable to Scrambler bikes invading the route. As for the steps IIRC there is just one short set of them and one can easily push a bike up them.

The Taff Trail is not so friendly towards touring cyclists with panniers when it comes to negotiating the frequent labyrinth barriers at the Merthyr Tydfil/ Cardiff end of the trail. It is the worst bit of any Sustrans route that I have ridden on for interrupting a potentially pleasant and continuous ride because of this. Oh, I forgot about the several sets of steps that have to be negotiated too thankfully they were downwards towards Cardiff - I'd have hated pushing carrying my bike up them on my way towards Brecon.

Apart from that I have enjoyed most of the Sustrans routes that I have cycled.

 

[Angelfishsolo]

Why not approach them and offer your help and assistance in redesigning the NCN. It seems as though you have a wealth of experience that the organization could benefit from.

Sustrans don't provide the alternatives - the alternatives are already there as part of the road network. A swift look at a road map will enlighten as to what is likely to be a busy road or not. I find OS maps exceedingly useful in this regard and they've been around for donkey's years more than Sustrans.

What I particularly don't like about Sustrans:-

1.Sustrans, derived from 'sustainable transport' Yet Sustrans appear to put emphasis on leisure rather than sustainable transport routes.

2. Sustrans emphasis on equating safe with 'traffic-free' thus painting the erroneous picture that cycling on roads where there is traffic is unsafe, when in the great scheme of things, it isn't. It paints a false picture of the real level of danger cycling on road. Also, it effectively emphasises the erroneous belief by too many non-cyclists that cyclists have no place on the roads, but should be relegated to farcilities off the road.

Example:- part of NCN 13 is not far from me. It's the route between Dereham & Fakenham. As a local resident I simply cannot understand the reasoning behind the choice of route. It adds miles to the journey - which sort of puts the 'sustainable transport' bit out of the window. Nor does it take a route that is any quieter or more 'traffic-free' than the many alternative routes available. Plus on the shared-use farcilities bit of some of the route there are barriers across the route including concrete bollards and junctions which increase risk to cyclists due to how they've been positioned.

 

[Angelfishsolo]

Cheers. It seems he is not the only one. I get the impression that some types of cyclists forget that other types exist.

I wouldn't worry too much about what marinyork says on this topic. He has long had a bee in his bonnet about Sustrans, and based what he has said previously his idea of a good and scenic cycle route is one that runs alongside a dual carriageway.

If he prefers to cycle along busy main roads that's fine by me. But I've never understood why he get so exercised about Sustrans providing alternatives for the many cyclists who prefer more quiet routes.

 

[wafflycat]

Why not approach them and offer your help and assistance in redesigning the NCN. It seems as though you have a wealth of experience that the organization could benefit from.

You think I haven't approached them as regards the local route? All my experiences of Sustrans are bad ones - especially when reporting problems encountered on any supposed NCN I've found myself on. As a result, I have no time for Sustrans.

 

[Angelfishsolo]

Fair enough; I guess we all have different experiences. All of mine have been extremely positive.

You think I haven't approached them as regards the local route? All my experiences of Sustrans are bad ones - especially when reporting problems encountered on any supposed NCN I've found myself on. As a result, I have no time for Sustrans.

 

[srw]

Sustrans don't provide the alternatives - the alternatives are already there as part of the road network. A swift look at a road map will enlighten as to what is likely to be a busy road or not. I find OS maps exceedingly useful in this regard and they've been around for donkey's years more than Sustrans.

There any many places (e.g. across Hertfordshire which i've been batting on about but you seem not to have read) where the alternative is better than the roads - flat, direct, avoiding main roads. Without sustrans these routes might exist but wouldn't be maintained and publicised.

What I particularly don't like about Sustrans:-

1.Sustrans, derived from 'sustainable transport' Yet Sustrans appear to put emphasis on leisure rather than sustainable transport routes.

Safe routes to schools? That's all about transport. Yes, some of the country routes meander somewhat, and some of the urban routes are less than desirable, but there's some good stuff among the dross.

2. Sustrans emphasis on equating safe with 'traffic-free' thus painting the erroneous picture that cycling on roads where there is traffic is unsafe, when in the great scheme of things, it isn't. It paints a false picture of the real level of danger cycling on road. Also, it effectively emphasises the erroneous belief by too many non-cyclists that cyclists have no place on the roads, but should be relegated to farcilities off the road.

I disagree with both your points. "Traffic-free" is not equated with "safe", it is equated with "more pleasant". And I fundamentally disagree that non-cyclists are being brainwashed by a cycling organisation into believing that we should be off the road. In fact I believe the reverse - the more signs there are that people cycle the more accepted the pastime/transport method/hobby will become.

Example:- part of NCN 13 is not far from me. It's the route between Dereham & Fakenham. As a local resident I simply cannot understand the reasoning behind the choice of route. It adds miles to the journey - which sort of puts the 'sustainable transport' bit out of the window. Nor does it take a route that is any quieter or more 'traffic-free' than the many alternative routes available. Plus on the shared-use farcilities bit of some of the route there are barriers across the route including concrete bollards and junctions which increase risk to cyclists due to how they've been positioned.

Shared-use paths are usually an abomination. The route between Dereham and Fakenham on the sustrans site (it's not on the OS 1:50,000 map yet) doesn't look massively unreasonable - yes, you could cut off a corner (and if I really wanted to go from Dereham to Fakenham I probably wouuld), but it looks designed to join up with a previous route between Fakenham and Norwich. The route south from Dereham to Thetford looks like a perfectly reasonable route.

No-one is forcing anyone to ride anything they don't want to. Your comments are tired - I've seen the same sort of unthinking, purely local criticism many many times.

 

[wafflycat]

Every time I see Sustrans promoted on TV it's always about equating safe with 'traffic free' This promotes the idea that cycling & traffic don't mix and that cyclists somehow need to be kept away from motorised traffic. It's helping promote the myth that cycling is somehow inherently unsafe on road.

 

[Angelfishsolo]

That is quite clearly how you translate the message. It might be promoting a healthier environment and exploring places otherwise unseen by taking car routes.

Every time I see Sustrans promoted on TV it's always about equating safe with 'traffic free' This promotes the idea that cycling & traffic don't mix and that cyclists somehow need to be kept away from motorised traffic. It's helping promote the myth that cycling is somehow inherently unsafe on road.

 

[Angelfishsolo]

I must correct something I wrote regarding the steps along this route. I had taken a variation on the route when I first did the ride and had bypassed the steps referenced. As such my comment regarding "just one short set of steps" is null and void. I apologise for any confusion caused. I will also add that some parts of the Abercynon to Merthyr trail are quite intimidating (long dark / dank tunnels) and not ideal for a lone cyclist, especially female.

The Taff Trail is not so friendly towards touring cyclists with panniers when it comes to negotiating the frequent labyrinth barriers at the Merthyr Tydfil/ Cardiff end of the trail. It is the worst bit of any Sustrans route that I have ridden on for interrupting a potentially pleasant and continuous ride because of this. Oh, I forgot about the several sets of steps that have to be negotiated too thankfully they were downwards towards Cardiff - I'd have hated pushing carrying my bike up them on my way towards Brecon.

Apart from that I have enjoyed most of the Sustrans routes that I have cycled.

 

[User482]

Having ridden many of the Sustrans routes (including C2C, Devon C2C, Pennine Cycleway) my experiences are generally very positive. Sure, some of the routes aren't direct, but that's not really the point of them, as these are long distance leisure routes. Their urban routes round here (Bristol) are extremely popular - the Bristol-Bath path heaves at rush hour, and is also a haven for joggers & walkers.

Some experienced cyclists dislike Sustrans routes, but so what? No-one is compelling you to use them. And if they get more bums on saddles then that's fine by me.

These debates always seem to polarise into CTC vs Sustrans. It is possible to be supportive of both organisations' point of view. I know I am.

 

[Bodhbh]

There any many places (e.g. across Hertfordshire which i've been batting on about but you seem not to have read) where the alternative is better than the roads - flat, direct, avoiding main roads. Without sustrans these routes might exist but wouldn't be maintained and publicised.

Actually quite useful information for me living in Watford and will give it a crack. Fancied a trip over Essex/Sufolk way, but avoided heading east till now cos the routes didn't look too appealing.

 

[srw]

Actually quite useful information for me living in Watford and will give it a crack. Fancied a trip over Essex/Sufolk way, but avoided heading east till now cos the routes didn't look too appealing.

Take a map, don't worry about bypassing bits of the marked routes you don't fancy (we didn't go into Welwyn GC town centre) and enjoy.

 

[WJHall]

I am afraid that it is the offroad bits of the NCN that worry me. The quality of surface can be rather variable, and finding yourself faced with the possibility of either a bumpy ride or a detour via a main road is rather daunting, so careful checking is a good idea.

The bits of NCN marked on minor roads are usually fine, and useful, especially on today's road network where A roads are carrying the traffic that B roads did 30 years ago, without any widening. The number of continuous minor road routes can be rather limited in some areas, so if Sustrans have puzzled out the conundrum it saves you the trouble of doing so. In this context many of the offroad bits are most useful when they provide key links allowing you to avoid major roads.

Scenically I also tend to feel that the on road routes are usually more attractive. Some of the off road routes have a feeling of cutting across the countryside rather than being part of it, which is fine, sometimes, but not always the most attractive option.

You have to recognise the difficulties Sustrans work under. Most of the implementation is through local authorities, which frankly are fundamentally not the least bit interested in cycling, so if there sometimes seems to be excessive hype compared to the quality of the product, this may be the price to pay for getting anything at all. The same goes for any empire building.

With that said, there are serious questions about whether the Sustrans philosophy of off road routes, often based on old railway lines is really the way forward for any real increase in cycling, especially if it leads to conflict with proposals to reopen the railways as railways. The flagship Bristol to Bath path could bump into this one some time in the next half century.

John Hall