Team BKool CycleChat

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kipster

Guru
Location
Hampshire
Just what I was thinking. All of a sudden folks on here are talking about fec and I have no fecking idea what they're talking about :huh:.
Ant+ FE-C is a open standard for Ant+ connunication for trainers, essentially it opens up the controls of turbos to other software providers. You need to install the bkool firmware with FE-C in it (most will have this, with perhaps the exception of AAAC with his Frankenstien Bkool hybrid), then activiate FE-C from within the BSIM. This will then allow you to pair the turbo with Zwift, Trainerroad (possibly). That software can then adjust the resistance on the turbo for hills, wind, road surface etc.. and read the speed / power outputs for use within your chosen software platform.

https://www.thisisant.com/news/ant-releases-industrys-first-standard-for-trainers-and-ic-bikes
http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2015/08/announces-software-available.html
 

bobinski

Legendary Member
Location
Tulse Hill
And what the 'feck' is fec?
Just what I was thinking. All of a sudden folks on here are talking about fec and I have no fecking idea what they're talking about :huh:.

I see kipster has answered:okay:

Both of you give it a go in the Zwift demo. I am not suggesting that coz i think Zwift is better. It isn't in so many ways. It feels a bit like the scramble you have every weekend at box hill. Its there, its pretty, cracking user interface and all that but far too many road warriors shouting and moaning. Nahh, I suggest you try because it gives a useful counterpoint to compare different feel between the 2 programs. For me bkool is pretty close to my road and mountains experience, a little flattering especially downhill, but the ant fec+ implementation in Zwift seems closer still. But then it is all perception.
 

gbrown

Geoff on Bkool
Location
South Somerset
Just starting to catch up on the discussions. Sounds like the handicap race was a hit. Not sure if I'll be able to join any or not, but would love to go ahead and get capp'd so that if I happen to be awake and near the bike at the right time I could join. I'm slower than Whorty these days, and yes, I know he's been away and lost some fitness, same applies to me too :-)

Jeff, if you fancy joining in tomorrow (Tuesday) from 8pm GMT (UTC) then you could just start alongside Whorty at 2 mins underway and see how you get on.

Geoff (spelled the correct way!)
 

theboxers

TheBoxers on Cycle Sim sw
OK, I suggest we go for an 8PM start on Tuesday, as it seems to suit more people and gives an alternative to the 7PM starts on Thursdays. Let's see if the slightly later start is popular?

See you all on Tuesday. I'll start the warm up at 7:50 pm, hopefully TheBoxers can join me, and I'll update the Handicap thread with the start times and post a reminder here.

Should all be done before 9PM... :hungry:

Geoff
Unfortunately how I feel at the moment is going to cause me to miss this again :cursing:. Sorry to muck you about Geoff :blush:. I hope all who take part enjoy it :thumbsup:.
 

gbrown

Geoff on Bkool
Location
South Somerset
Bob I think its weight related. So at 77kg like myself, AAAC and LB the resistance will climb up to about 10% then it won't get any harder no matter what the gradient goes up to. For yourself at a lighter weight the resistance will continue to climb to a higher gradient, perhaps 12%.

WARNING: layman struggling to remember A level physics spouting half understood concepts...

The more I look into this, the more factors are involved in the physics of the electro-magnetic brakes used in trainers like the bkool and KICKR, etc. and hence the more variables that are involved in what can be simulated. It's not like in the real world, where the major factors are gravity and aerodynamic drag, which have no practical limits to their predictable effects.

Maximum resistance is not "directly" related to weight, but to simulate a gradient for a given weight you would need a greater resistance for a greater weight, so maximum gradient is "indirectly" related to weight.

You would expect it should also be related to speed, in as much as the faster you can cycle at a given gradient, the sooner you will reach the maximum resistance, since the force you are producing is greater and therefore requires a greater resisting force. However, the physics imply this cannot be an entirely linear relationship...

In an electromagnetic trainer the resistance is created using circular eddy currents induced in a rotating metal disc by magnetic fields and these eddy currents are related to speed, so at slow speeds you get much lower resistance (as pointed out by AAAC and hence the on/off technique). As you increase speed the resistance increases, but at some point the resistance will then then reach a practical maximum and cannot increase any further.

A conductive surface moving past a stationary magnet will have circular electric currents called eddy currents induced in it by the magnetic field, due to Faraday's law of induction. By Lenz's law, the circulating currents will create their own magnetic field which opposes the field of the magnet. Thus the moving conductor will experience a drag force from the magnet that opposes its motion, proportional to its velocity. The electrical energy of the eddy currents is dissipated as heat due to the electrical resistance of the conductor.

If you cycle very slowly, you get less resistance, but if you cycle very quickly you will reach a point where you can get no more resistance for a given system of magnets and conductor.

But if you are cycling slowly you are by definition getting less resistance, even when the electromagnets are on full, so you will have a lower maximum resistance than if you cycle quicker, until you reach the maximum resistance of the whole system, i.e. the eddy currents generated can produce no more resisting magnetic forces and dissipate no more heat.

So cycling slower will give a lower maximum resistance, but cycling faster can reach the maximum resistance of the whole system.

Weight is a bit easier to predict, as being heavier should always reduce the gradients at which these maximum resistances are met.

There must be a range of gradients for each weight that can be simulated over a range of speeds, but above or below those speeds the resistance will reach a limit or begin to fall off.

A heavy/powerful rider will reach maximum resistance sooner than a lighter/less powerful rider, but a slower rider will have a lower maximum resistance, therefore the simulation will only be accurate between both a minimum and a maximum speed for each given riders weight and power.

Edit: This implies that a heavy slow rider will have a lower maximum gradient than a light fast rider, which seems to fit reported observations here.


This makes it hard to get a one size fits all rule for how steep a gradient can be simulated by a given trainer, as it depends on weight and speed/power, but also temperature (and humidity), airflow (for cooling), not to mention the usual manufacturing tolerances (and undoubtedly other factors not considered)!

The systems are limited by the maximum strength of the electromagnets, the size and magnetic properties of the metal disc, the maximum speed of the disc that the rider can maintain and the maximum heat the system can dissipate in the given environment. Since the energy is dissipated as heat, beyond a certain level the heat can no longer be dissipated and this will limit the energy and hence the resisting force.

Finally, an electromagnetic trainer with a larger rotating disk and/or stronger electromagnets should be able to produce larger resisting forces and hence simulate greater gradients, all else being equal.

These capabilities always tend to be quoted in Power but since power is force times velocity (when force and velocity are constant) this is misleading as it depends on velocity.

Where these capabilities are quoted as a maximum gradient, these are doubly misleading, as it also depends indirectly on rider weight.

So unless the maximum resistance is quoted in Newtons and the maximum gradient is for a specified weight (and speed) then take them with a pinch of salt.

However, I think it is safe to assume that a trainer with a higher quoted maximum power will be able to simulate a higher gradient for a given rider, unless they employ much more misleading marketing staff...

Geoff
 
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theboxers

TheBoxers on Cycle Sim sw
:laugh:
WARNING: layman struggling to remember A level physics spouting half understood concepts...

The more I look into this, the more factors are involved in the physics of the electro-magnetic brakes used in trainers like the bkool and KICKR, etc. and hence the more variables that are involved in what can be simulated. It's not like in the real world, where the major factors are gravity and aerodynamic drag, which have no practical limits to their predictable effects.

Maximum resistance is not "directly" related to weight, but to simulate a gradient for a given weight you would need a greater resistance for a greater weight, so maximum gradient is "indirectly" related to weight.

You would expect it should also be related to speed, in as much as the faster you can cycle at a given gradient, the sooner you will reach the maximum resistance, since the force you are producing is greater and therefore requires a greater resisting force. However, the physics imply this cannot be an entirely linear relationship...

In an electromagnetic trainer the resistance is created using circular eddy currents induced in a rotating metal disc by magnetic fields and these eddy currents are related to speed, so at slow speeds you get much lower resistance (as pointed out by AAAC and hence the on/off technique). As you increase speed the resistance increases, but at some point the resistance will then then reach a practical maximum and cannot increase any further.



If you cycle very slowly, you get less resistance, but if you cycle very quickly you will reach a point where you can get no more resistance for a given system of magnets and conductor.

But if you are cycling slowly you are by definition getting less resistance, even when the electromagnets are on full, so you will have a lower maximum resistance than if you cycle quicker, until you reach the maximum resistance of the whole system, i.e. the eddy currents generated can produce no more resisting magnetic forces and dissipate no more heat.

So cycling slower will give a lower maximum resistance, but cycling faster can reach the maximum resistance of the whole system.

Weight is a bit easier to predict, as being heavier should always reduce the gradients at which these maximum resistances are met.

There must be a range of gradients for each weight that can be simulated over a range of speeds, but above or below those speeds the resistance will reach a limit or begin to fall off.

A heavy/powerful rider will reach maximum resistance sooner than a lighter/less powerful rider, but a slower rider will have a lower maximum resistance, therefore the simulation will only be accurate between both a minimum and a maximum speed for each given riders weight and power.

Edit: This implies that a heavy slow rider will have a lower maximum gradient than a light fast rider, which seems to fit reported observations here.


This makes it hard to get a one size fits all rule for how steep a gradient can be simulated by a given trainer, as it depends on weight and speed/power, but also temperature (and humidity), airflow (for cooling), not to mention the usual manufacturing tolerances (and undoubtedly other factors not considered)!

The systems are limited by the maximum strength of the electromagnets, the size and magnetic properties of the metal disc, the maximum speed of the disc that the rider can maintain and the maximum heat the system can dissipate in the given environment. Since the energy is dissipated as heat, beyond a certain level the heat can no longer be dissipated and this will limit the energy and hence the resisting force.

Finally, an electromagnetic trainer with a larger rotating disk and/or stronger electromagnets should be able to produce larger resisting forces and hence simulate greater gradients, all else being equal.

These capabilities always tend to be quoted in Power but since power is force times velocity (when force and velocity are constant) this is misleading as it depends on velocity.

Where these capabilities are quoted as a maximum gradient, these are doubly misleading, as it also depends indirectly on rider weight.

So unless the maximum resistance is quoted in Newtons and the maximum gradient is for a specified weight (and speed) then take them with a pinch of salt.

Geoff
:surrender: Lost it after 5 words :whistle:
 

theboxers

TheBoxers on Cycle Sim sw
Condensed...

Heavy and slow = low maximum gradient
Light and fast = higher maximum gradient
:thumbsup: thats me sorted then :tongue: :laugh:

Still hurts though :B)
 

bridgy

Legendary Member
Location
Cheddar
Ditto
That puts me in the heavy slow category too as it only simulates up to 10 percent for me :B)

How do you know this Bill? Just through feeling that the resistance doesn't change above 10% or do you have a more technical way of knowing? I've never really thought about it as I'm usually too busy just trying to breathe at inclines more than 10% to do anything else!
 

bobinski

Legendary Member
Location
Tulse Hill
How do you know this Bill? Just through feeling that the resistance doesn't change above 10% or do you have a more technical way of knowing? I've never really thought about it as I'm usually too busy just trying to breathe at inclines more than 10% to do anything else!

I was just about to ask the same thing. We are same weight. I think you spin much faster than me uphill. That seems to be only difference. Yet I "know" I feel the diffence between 9 and 15%. I am so confused :sad:
 
I was just about to ask the same thing. We are same weight. I think you spin much faster than me uphill. That seems to be only difference. Yet I "know" I feel the diffence between 9 and 15%. I am so confused :sad:
I can't get the bsim to start today. Getting program not responding. Uninstalled and reinstalled but same thing. Anyone else having problems?
 

LBHIFI

Veteran
Location
Liseleje
How do you know this Bill? Just through feeling that the resistance doesn't change above 10% or do you have a more technical way of knowing? I've never really thought about it as I'm usually too busy just trying to breathe at inclines more than 10% to do anything else!
I'm getting the same max as Bill: 10-11 %. Bill and I have done plenty of crazy slopes in the UK 100 climb league to have reached this conclusion.
 
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