wowsorry to lower the tone but I thought you just peddled as fast as you could for as long as you could
as we all know "everyday is a school day"
Funny, that sounds like how BKool Pro is handled in Zwift. Done right, this would eliminate the on/off advantage.
very occasionally, on a really steep slope, but its momentary before it falls to mid and then low 60's and then rapidly down into 45-55km on average, whatever the gradient.
My speed tends to decrease fairly quickly on descents, unless it's really steep, so I also work hard on most downhills. I just push hard enough to make the numbers white again. Feels like +500 watts, but seldom registers as much more than 300 watts. As soon as I reach just below 70 kph I will freewheel again.
Exactly!
I've tried to make this point a few times, but once your speed on a steep downhill exceeds what you can realistically maintain at your max cadence in your highest gear (40+ mph or more) pedaling is just a waste of effort, and it may even not increase your average watts, as you will have less energy for when the gradient flattens out a bit. This is true in real life, and it is true in bkool as well.
Since most of you seem to ride right on the limit of your strength and endurance on these league rides, it makes sense to take the opportunity to rest and get back some anaerobic capacity for use where it can assist. It has been shown that recovery is faster the further below your threshold you are riding, so a rest on a steep downhill will give you more watts for when it counts.
I did do some calculations a while ago to try and show that it is always best to expend maximum effort on the steep, slow bits and less worthwhile the faster you are going, as aerodynamic drag is exponential and at higher speeds extra watts buy little extra speed, whereas as gravity is linear, so extra watts gain more additional speed. This is in the real world, and also in any decent simulation.
I read it put beautifully once, that it is better to power up the hills and freewheel down again than the other way round!
My 2p worth...
It strikes me that we would not want to be too prescriptive on this, learning to finesse the simulation to gain slight advantages seems not worth worrying about, riding in a manner that is most efficient in the simulation and probably the real world. Drafting, freewheeling downhill once speed gets high enough, hitting it hard at the bottom of slight inclines to carry momentum as far as possible, and burning up any remaining anaerobic capacity in a mad sprint at the end are all valid tactics on road and in bkool.
It seems that riding in wildly unnatural ways to exploit blatant loop holes in the simulation software/hardware is like cheating at solitaire, and to no-ones advantage, especially the one doing it. So almost stopping before spinning up as fast as you can and then almost stopping again sounds to me like taking a Strava KOM on your motorbike, pointless and obnoxious!
Not sure about the gunning it at the start thing, it seems to exploit the extreme on/off loophole, but only once! If one person does it, it kind of forces everyone else to, but it is not a natural riding style as few people would choose to start a road race trying to go as fast as they possibly can. Personally I think it is unfortunate that it works this way, as it artificially spreads out the field right at the start and reduces the prospect of interaction between the riders that you would find in a real ride.
Geoff
Exactly!
I've tried to make this point a few times, but once your speed on a steep downhill exceeds what you can realistically maintain at your max cadence in your highest gear (40+ mph or more) pedaling is just a waste of effort, and it may even not increase your average watts, as you will have less energy for when the gradient flattens out a bit. This is true in real life, and it is true in bkool as well.
Since most of you seem to ride right on the limit of your strength and endurance on these league rides, it makes sense to take the opportunity to rest and get back some anaerobic capacity for use where it can assist. It has been shown that recovery is faster the further below your threshold you are riding, so a rest on a steep downhill will give you more watts for when it counts.
I did do some calculations a while ago to try and show that it is always best to expend maximum effort on the steep, slow bits and less worthwhile the faster you are going, as aerodynamic drag is exponential and at higher speeds extra watts buy little extra speed, whereas as gravity is linear, so extra watts gain more additional speed. This is in the real world, and also in any decent simulation.
I read it put beautifully once, that it is better to power up the hills and freewheel down again than the other way round!
My 2p worth...
It strikes me that we would not want to be too prescriptive on this, learning to finesse the simulation to gain slight advantages seems not worth worrying about, riding in a manner that is most efficient in the simulation and probably the real world. Drafting, freewheeling downhill once speed gets high enough, hitting it hard at the bottom of slight inclines to carry momentum as far as possible, and burning up any remaining anaerobic capacity in a mad sprint at the end are all valid tactics on road and in bkool.
It seems that riding in wildly unnatural ways to exploit blatant loop holes in the simulation software/hardware is like cheating at solitaire, and to no-ones advantage, especially the one doing it. So almost stopping before spinning up as fast as you can and then almost stopping again sounds to me like taking a Strava KOM on your motorbike, pointless and obnoxious!
Not sure about the gunning it at the start thing, it seems to exploit the extreme on/off loophole, but only once! If one person does it, it kind of forces everyone else to, but it is not a natural riding style as few people would choose to start a road race trying to go as fast as they possibly can. Personally I think it is unfortunate that it works this way, as it artificially spreads out the field right at the start and reduces the prospect of interaction between the riders that you would find in a real ride.
Geoff
Same technique I use both on Bkool and in the real world.
Definitely Bkool exaggerates the momentum though.I took part in the Bkool featured race yesterday and actually thought I'd give the on/off thing a go to see what happens.Mark, we've discussed this on/off effect for quite some time now and I think it's fair to say that we've split it into two categories. I think we've more or less banned one category and said that the other is fair game (but I think the discussion continues). The banned type is when you reduce your power so much that the unit allows the resistance to drop so much that when you apply power again your speed will quickly head towards 40mph and beyond even if you are riding uphill. It's not like you can be constantly doing 40mph but the speed does average out as considerably higher. As a final test to satisfy myself that this was actually happening (because someone recently said that it didn't make any difference) I challenged AAAC on last weeks chaingang ride to see if I could win by on/offing the illegal way.
http://www.bkool.com/bkoolSessionHistory/showSessionSummary/1957383
The end result (not saved in results) was that I won only just using only 200watts average. The power graph is ultra spikey. I was generally powering up to 5-600 watts then just freewheeling until the power dropped to near zero then repeat. This is not allowed in Chaingang rides or Mountain goat rides. The penalty for this in a Mountain goat ride (where this riding style is lethal) is to double the time for your next ride.
I do however totally see your point regarding the other type of on/offing which I think needs a new name. It has been classed before as efficient riding because it is exploiting the freewheeling downhill so you have more energy to attack the next hill and use the "slingshot effect" which I guess is programed in by bkool to be like momentum carrying your speed already built up. The efficient riding type has become a bit instinctive to me now perhaps unfortunately and I'd have to train myself to get back into a more steady power ride, which I'm planning to do on the next handicap race. I think this needs much discussion because we have actively encouraged drafting and we have even done calculations (well Geoff has) to prove that even in the real world, a cyclist can make gains by keeping more power for the hills as this is where more time can be saved.
The mountain goat league has no such problems because we know that constant power is the most efficient way to ride and the other type of on/offing is illegal. There are other trainer types but we separate out the results in cases where one type has a big advantage over others.
For the Chaingang I think we may need to find a middle ground to try and even out the effect. This is after all not just turboing for fitness, but also for fun and I would say should be tactical and including the mind games that have always gone on, which people seem to enjoy.
We could go on to suggest that everyone must run the same control tyre at the same psi so that we're all on a level playing field. If further discussions lead to that then I'd be happy to go along with it. I actually think that tyre type and psi make more difference to speed than the efficient riding styles discussed above.
No offence taken btw. I just think we need to further discuss and get everyone's thoughts.
I was sitting in third spot and convinced that the guy behind would eventually overhaul me. I started letting the watts drop and then sprinting for a few seconds on a few occasions. Wasnt getting extreme results like Bills mountain goat experiment ride, but it was enough for me to open up a gap of a minute over a period of time, when in actual fact I'm pretty sure the guy behind would have beat me. When I did go to TT mode I found it much harder to stay ahead than slowing and powering off again. 
Exactly!
I've tried to make this point a few times, but once your speed on a steep downhill exceeds what you can realistically maintain at your max cadence in your highest gear (40+ mph or more) pedaling is just a waste of effort, and it may even not increase your average watts, as you will have less energy for when the gradient flattens out a bit. This is true in real life, and it is true in bkool as well.
Since most of you seem to ride right on the limit of your strength and endurance on these league rides, it makes sense to take the opportunity to rest and get back some anaerobic capacity for use where it can assist. It has been shown that recovery is faster the further below your threshold you are riding, so a rest on a steep downhill will give you more watts for when it counts.
I did do some calculations a while ago to try and show that it is always best to expend maximum effort on the steep, slow bits and less worthwhile the faster you are going, as aerodynamic drag is exponential and at higher speeds extra watts buy little extra speed, whereas as gravity is linear, so extra watts gain more additional speed. This is in the real world, and also in any decent simulation.
I read it put beautifully once, that it is better to power up the hills and freewheel down again than the other way round!
My 2p worth...
It strikes me that we would not want to be too prescriptive on this, learning to finesse the simulation to gain slight advantages seems not worth worrying about, riding in a manner that is most efficient in the simulation and probably the real world. Drafting, freewheeling downhill once speed gets high enough, hitting it hard at the bottom of slight inclines to carry momentum as far as possible, and burning up any remaining anaerobic capacity in a mad sprint at the end are all valid tactics on road and in bkool.
It seems that riding in wildly unnatural ways to exploit blatant loop holes in the simulation software/hardware is like cheating at solitaire, and to no-ones advantage, especially the one doing it. So almost stopping before spinning up as fast as you can and then almost stopping again sounds to me like taking a Strava KOM on your motorbike, pointless and obnoxious!
Not sure about the gunning it at the start thing, it seems to exploit the extreme on/off loophole, but only once! If one person does it, it kind of forces everyone else to, but it is not a natural riding style as few people would choose to start a road race trying to go as fast as they possibly can. Personally I think it is unfortunate that it works this way, as it artificially spreads out the field right at the start and reduces the prospect of interaction between the riders that you would find in a real ride.
Geoff
Great idea!How about a test?
As many as possible schedule a session on Mont Ventoux descend
http://www.bkool.com/profile/detail/1002900?durationType=DISTANCE&lapCount=1
Don't pedal at all!
Compare speeds.
They should pretty much match your weights.
Then try again pedaling like a loony, and see how much faster you can go!
Geofff
Same technique I use both on Bkool and in the real world.
I took part in the Bkool featured race yesterday and actually thought I'd give the on/off thing a go to see what happens.
Problem is, now that I've done it and see the advantage it'll be harder to convince myself to not do it!
