The bakers' thread

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All of this!! I'd also add that the flour and even water quality and type can play a part, plus the whim of the yeast who can sometimes be vindictive as well as generous.

However, as I have said many times to many people, bread is the simplest thing in the world to make - people have been making it for millennia - all it needs at its most basic is flour and water. For a typical white loaf you need flour, water, yeast and a pinch of salt. The ratio of flour to water is important in order to get a dough you can handle and here is where the flour can make a difference and different flours - even different batches of the same flour - can absorb water differently. Having started as a basic baker and simply following a recipe I am now embroiled in the world of % hydration levels, but this is not required learning. As @Reynard said, watch the dough and do-learn-do. For a decent crust, put a shallow tray at the bottom of the oven whilst it is pre-heating then when you put the loaf in to bake pour boiling water into the tray and close the door. The steam raises humidity in the oven causing sugars in the dough to migrate to the surface and dissolve, which then caramelise to form the crust.

When I tell people I bake bread a common response is "I don't have a bread maker" to which I respond "all you need is a mixing bowl, some hands and an oven".

A good starting point is 600g of white flour, 360g of water, 12g (salt 2% of flour) salt and however much yeast you need. For me, it varies according to how much time I have on my hands. I also add a tablespoon of vegetable oil as it helps the bread to keep.
 

figbat

Slippery scientist
A good starting point is 600g of white flour, 360g of water, 12g (salt 2% of flour) salt and however much yeast you need. For me, it varies according to how much time I have on my hands. I also add a tablespoon of vegetable oil as it helps the bread to keep.
Agree - good basic recipe. I sometimes also add a teaspoon of sugar, particularly if it's a quickie dough.
A rule of thumb says that the more fat you add the softer the bread will be, so you can make a dough using part or all milk and if you don't want a hard crust cover when removed from the oven to allow condensation to soften the crust.

Another tip (I am on a roll now - pun intended - as I am a chemist by training so have studied the science of baking to some extent) - the process by which bread stales is not principally of drying out, it is caused by the crystallisation of various molecules in the bread over time. To revive a day-or-two-old loaf or baguette simple sprinkle with a little water, wrap loosely in foil and bake for 15 minutes or so (dependent on size). You should end up with a nice, fresh crusty bread again. In fact I sometimes do this with bread I have bought anyway, even on the day of purchase. The heat and moisture reverses the crystallisation reaction.
 

figbat

Slippery scientist
Wow, thanks so much for all the guidance @Reynard @figbat thats great, if a little daunting 😅
I’m not put off though, I’m stunned at the quality of this attempt, and will do much more!
thanks again 👍😃
Keep at it! It's one of those things that seems to be stigmatised as difficult but it really isn't. Besides, even if you manage to get it wrong what have you lost - some flour and a bit of yeast. I've been baking 'seriously' for about 5 or 6 years now and I still worry that it won't turn out right, sometimes because the whole family is relying on it coming out OK in order to have their next meal. So far nothing has come out inedible and despite my self-criticism about appearance or small details, it has all disappeared.

I'm back into sourdough baking again - now that is a really fickle beast! But so satisfying to get right.
 
OP
OP
glasgowcyclist

glasgowcyclist

Charming but somewhat feckless
Location
Scotland
With sour dough, can you knock back more than once, as with "normal" yeast? I had a loaf proving, but forgot about it and it slumped back down. I've baked it now, but for the future does a second knock back work?


Yes. So long as the yeast has food to consume, it'll produce gas to lift the dough. However, this isn't endless so you may not get away with a 3rd or 4th knocking back and each rise may be less than before.
 
Keep at it! It's one of those things that seems to be stigmatised as difficult but it really isn't. Besides, even if you manage to get it wrong what have you lost - some flour and a bit of yeast. I've been baking 'seriously' for about 5 or 6 years now and I still worry that it won't turn out right, sometimes because the whole family is relying on it coming out OK in order to have their next meal. So far nothing has come out inedible and despite my self-criticism about appearance or small details, it has all disappeared.

I'm back into sourdough baking again - now that is a really fickle beast! But so satisfying to get right.

Hrmph... Baking a frisbee is definitely a rite of passage... :whistle:
 
Location
South East
Thanks again everyone! One question about my loaf today, is it a little over cooked, and does the texture look right? I ask because I think I could have removed the loaf from the oven maybe 4 to 5 minutes earlier, but then the dough may not have cooked inside.
Also, for whole meal or a grain loaf, would the proving/cooking times vary?
Thanks
SnG
 

figbat

Slippery scientist
Thanks again everyone! One question about my loaf today, is it a little over cooked, and does the texture look right? I ask because I think I could have removed the loaf from the oven maybe 4 to 5 minutes earlier, but then the dough may not have cooked inside.
To some extent it's a matter of taste. Yes, it's 'well done' but then this is de riguer with artisan loaves and, to me, preferable to a pale loaf. The crumb looks OK to me too. For a 500g loaf (that is 500g of flour) I'd expect something like 40 minutes in the oven set pretty high (I'm usually at at least 200°C, sometimes higher if seeking proper artisanity). I've never had a loaf come out un-baked in the middle, but a simple tap-the-bottom test will usually tell you. Also I tend to take the loaf out of its tin (or off of its tray if free-form) for the last 10 minutes or so, so allow an all-over crust to develop. And slash-cutting the top will also help it rise uniformly, develop a crust and prevent unplanned cracks appearing down the sides or anywhere else (there is a phenomenon called 'oven spring' where the loaf rises quickly in the first few minutes; it also develops a dried crust quickly though so if you haven't slashed it on top the crust can form and then get burst by the swelling dough beneath it).

Also, for whole meal or a grain loaf, would the proving/cooking times vary?
They might - as advised up-thread, keep an eye on it. Heavily seeded flours or those with a high wholemeal proportion may need a little less water-to-flour ratio and may also rise slower. Cooking times are, for me, about the same but generally the loaf comes out 'when its done', something you will develop an eye/nose/ear for with time.
 

figbat

Slippery scientist
Also forgot to mention I have used beer as the liquid in the dough too, but be careful not to use anything too hoppy as the bitterness really concentrates in the crust. Goes well in a dark bread though (eg rye).
 
Location
South East
@figbat ah, that’s great, I understand, thanks.
I’ve just changed my shopping order from the single 500g ‘mix’ to 1.5kg of flour, both white and wholemeal and some yeast, as I’m too good for the baby steps 😂 thanks to you and @Reynard
We’re alco-free, so will leave that for the time being, but thanks for all your help.
 

figbat

Slippery scientist
The first loaf I ever made turned out like the best white loaf I had ever bought; I wish I'd known I could do this years ago! If a duff one happens then don't beat yourself up, try and work out what happened and move on to the next one.

I use flour from the Wessex Mill - it is local to me, makes a lot of different varieties and is available in local farm shops and other outlets. I also like that it says on the back of each bag which farms supplied the wheat - it is all local and from fields I doubtless rode past as it was growing.
 
Location
South East
Thanks @figbat
I agree about buying from local suppliers, we really do try to do this. Our local farm shop has a couple of different flours, but we’re not able to get out until Tuesday and we have a Sainsbury delivery booked at the weekend, so thought I’d add these in.
In future, we’ll look at the local suppliers in preference.
The ones I have ordered are Doves Farm, rather than the generic (genetic?) ones!
 

figbat

Slippery scientist
And another thing (sorry, it keeps coming to me) - when you first mix your flour and water, give it a good old kneading but if it looks too wet or dry you can correct with flour or water at this stage. However don't be too quick to correct as the flour absorbs the water and so what seems like a wet dough to start with may come back to you. Equally a slightly dry-looking mix may come together when fully worked together. If a dough is a bit tacky you can make it easier to handle on a damp surface and with damp hands - either water or a little oil. Using flour as an anti-stick agent will also work but will also add flour to your dough. Wetter doughs are better suited to contained baking (in a shaped tin) whereas a drier dough can be shaped free-form and baked on a tray.
 

figbat

Slippery scientist
Thanks @figbat
I agree about buying from local suppliers, we really do try to do this. Our local farm shop has a couple of different flours, but we’re not able to get out until Tuesday and we have a Sainsbury delivery booked at the weekend, so thought I’d add these in.
In future, we’ll look at the local suppliers in preference.
The ones I have ordered are Doves Farm, rather than the generic (genetic?) ones!
Yeah, it's all good. :okay:
 
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