The Ineos Grenadier thread.

[Richard A Thackeray]

See, this computer business doesn't worry me. Computers are what make modern cars vastly more reliable,powerful, economical and less polluting than those of even 25 years ago, and when they break they're not difficult to sort, its merely a different skill-set.

Yes, I remember the furore when Land Rover introduced the Td5 into the Defender
Screams of horror about electronics & no good for the wilderness/real work-horses

However, there are many tales of trans-Africa journies being undertaken safely

Yes, the Td5 had its faults
- Oil ingression into the injector wiring loom (electronic injectors)
- poorly sited ECU, for a working/expeditionary vehicle, that may encounter deep water (it was under the driver, in the seat-box)
some companies offered extension looms to mount it on the bulkhead (in a 90, or 110 hard-top) or at the top of the B-pillar

I'll admit, I was one of those owners with trepidation, as my previous 2 LRs were 300Tdi's (& a 200Tdi before that)
Then, I bought a 110 'Heritage' Station Wagon, with the Td5

 

[Deleted member 26715]

See, this computer business doesn't worry me. Computers are what make modern cars vastly more reliable,powerful, economical and less polluting than those of even 25 years ago, and when they break they're not difficult to sort, its merely a different skill-set.

I think a lot of that is down to the software, all this computer stuff seems a bit wishy washy, it throws up any error, but then the error is not the exact problem, if anything it probably needs more wiring & more sensors to make more sense of the error.

You take it to a garage & they say it's got a P1047 fault, great so you know what's wrong with it, No, it could be lots of different things causing that error & we'll have to start putting new bits on until we find it, please open your wallet so we can have your card on speed dial.

 

[Drago]

I genuinely wish them well but everyone had better hope the hopes and hype meet expectations. I've rarely heard people so excited about a new vehicle.

Me too, I hope the final product meets expectations. i'm actually jolly excited for them, and I know a few people who ar elicking their lips at the prospect of this truck hitting the market.

Indications are good though - transmisson and suspension design overseen by Magna-Steyr who build the G Wagen and have a lengthy track record of excellence, engines from BMW who know a thing or two about making decent motors, axles from Carraro who are a leading manufacture of truck, tractor and 4x4 axles, so where they have bought in expertise they have gone to top-drawer contractors.

Contrast this with JLR, who do nearly all of it in house and because of quite severe budget constraints are limited in many cases to component sharing with existing models, or modifying components form existing models. As a result build quality, reliablity and fitness for the target audience suffer - I mean, what farmer, workman, SAR team or utility company ever said "I want a replacement for our old defender, but it must be based on an SUV architecture"? - not a single one of them.

Conversely, within certain limits Ineos Automotive have incredible financial resources to draw upon and aren't constrained by having to component or platform share with another product.

 

[DRM]

If I was in charge at JLR, everyone involved in the new Defender project would be in a meeting first thing Monday am where they could explain why they came up with their freediscorover thing and didn’t design the Grenadier, they can then leave their passes on the way out, why on earth didn’t the use that iconic body shape as a starting point , it’s the only vehicle I can think of where you could bring a farmer say, from 1962, let them see the previous model Defender and ask what’s that, and they would immediately recognize it as a Land Rover, JLR are in deep doo doo if the new Defender is the best they can come up with.

 

[Deleted member 26715]

If I was in charge at JLR, everyone involved in the new Defender project would be in a meeting first thing Monday am where they could explain why they came up with their freediscorover thing and didn’t design the Grenadier, they can then leave their passes on the way out, why on earth didn’t the use that iconic body shape as a starting point , it’s the only vehicle I can think of where you could bring a farmer say, from 1962, let them see the previous model Defender and ask what’s that, and they would immediately recognize it as a Land Rover, JLR are in deep doo doo if the new Defender is the best they can come up with.

But is't this the way we (British) seem to do it, we design something then sit back on our laurels & milk it, we don't listen to our customers we give them what we think they want not what they need. I'm no LR lover but when I heard that they were ceasing production of whatever it was called now my first reaction was what are all the farmers, utilities, MOD et al, going to use now. Sorry but it was a no brainer, those at the top of LR should hang their heads in shame & fall on their swords, but I wager not one of them does.

 

[Drago]

It's a combination of terrible mismanagement and planning by senior management, and relatively poor funding by Tata. Volvo wer ein much the same position a decade ago, and look what a success they've been since Geely dismissed the hangover senior management from the ford ownership era and told the new lot to just get on with it.

Phaeton is right - it's an almost cultural failing in British industry to sit on laurels, to tell the market what they want instead of the other way round, to try and crib every last nut, both (and suspension airbag) from an existing model where possible. and when they do manage to produce a product that looks good and performs well they usually endow it reliability and poor finish that would embarass a 60's Trabant owner. He's also right when he says none of them will carry the can and they'll blame everyone else, just like their poor understanding of the market when the invested the family silver in diesel development, just in to for that train to leave the station. That was everyone elses fault, apparently. They'll get MBE's or something for their failure.

 

[Ming the Merciless]

Thought this would be about the Ineos Grenade and talking about Chris Froome leaving.

 

[Drago]

Oohh, will the team get Grenadier support vehicles?

 

[Deleted member 26715]

Oohh, will the team get Grenadier support vehicles?

Brilliant marketing, test bed situation then to sell on 2nd hand vehicles into the marketplace, that is assuming there will be a race for them to support.

 

[DRM]

But is't this the way we (British) seem to do it, we design something then sit back on our laurels & milk it, we don't listen to our customers we give them what we think they want not what they need. I'm no LR lover but when I heard that they were ceasing production of whatever it was called now my first reaction was what are all the farmers, utilities, MOD et al, going to use now. Sorry but it was a no brainer, those at the top of LR should hang their heads in shame & fall on their swords, but I wager not one of them does.

I remember when it was announced that there was to be a new Defender, all the L-R mags were speculating what it might look like, what spec etc etc, but all agreed it should look like a defender, but be better than the previous model addressing it's weak points, the thing that
L-R came up with is not what was hoped for, the management seem clueless, don't tell me I want an SUV style thing, when I need a workhorse, they have an iconic design, work with it, at least back in the 90's the P38 Range Rover, then The L322 that replaced it looked like a Range Rover, look at alternative power options, but give me a vehicle that will work for it's upkeep, not just be used to mount the kerb in the middle of a city, JLR have proved that they don't take any notice of what customers want, or what future regulations will enforce on them, they think that a green oval badge on it is all that's needed, wrong, now turn the lights off on the way out!

 

[DRM]

Oohh, will the team get Grenadier support vehicles?

I think theres a maximum height for team cars under some UCI rule or other, however there's no reason not to have one in team colours, in strategic places for photo opportunities etc

 

[Drago]

Or for top riders promise them for company business, or maybe even as company cars or promotional purposes. All sorts of opportunities.

 

[Drago]

Stop press! Work on the Bridgend factory has been put on hold - Daimler group have put their Hambach factory up for sale now Smart production is due to move to China, and Ineos Automotive want to investigate the possibility of buying an already built, modern car factory, right slap in the middle of their supply lines. The Welsh aren't best chuffed over the possibility of losing the factory on their turf at this late stage, but from a purely business perspective I can see why IA want to check it out. Let's see what happens.

 

[Deleted member 26715]

Isn't Hambach inside the EU after the 31st December? Doesn't that mean no tariffs selling to the other 26 nations? Which way did Wales vote in an election not so long ago?

 

[Drago]

Yep, Hambach is in the EU. That hasn't stopped Daimler moving Smart production to China, despite the EU being its biggest market. I don't know which way "Wales" voted, and frankly couldn't care less.

But that's politics, something I avoid - its rare I even vote. In any event, IA reckon at least half their output would be sold in the UK with the rest split between Europe and the US, so make of it what you will.