The uk is a throwaway society?

[chris667]

Don’t know where you live, but, charging for carrier bags, and introducing “bags for life”, has just resulted in same number of discarded bags, but, better quality.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ier-bags-charge-data-for-england-2021-to-2022

There were 496 million bags sold in 2021-22 as opposed to 2.12 billion in 2015-16, when the charge was introduced.

Looks like a success to me. I don't think I see as many carrier bags in my waste now, but of course your anecdotal evidence may be better than mine.

As for the Tesco example, did Tesco employ staff to thrown various items of litter about?

Well no, that would be silly. But if they never sold the packaging, there wouldn't be the waste, would there?

It is dirty, idle individuals who cause the problem, nobody else.

Ah, that old chestnut about recycling. I am wary about getting political when I really came here to read about bikes, but I can't help feeling that the producers of all this waste should take more responsibility for what happens to it beyond selling the products rather than blaming it all on individuals. You will always get irresponsible people who break the rules, but little nudges would really change matters.

Here's a thought. What about an extra 50p on the price of every item that was sold with throwaway packaging which you got back by returning it? I'd go around litter picking for that, I could probably make minimum wage. It might even incentivise producers to make things with less packaging because that's a big price difference.

Companies could do much more to fix things here, and we haven't made them. We are made to feel bad that our actions are ruining the planet but the fact is almost all pollution comes from a relatively small number of massive companies. They're the ones who need to step up here.

 

[Sallar55]

That isn't what he said or suggested.

All he is saying is that it isn't only the "Brits". The thread starter seemed to be suggesting it is a problem unique to the UK, which it isn't.

Dont think so, unless its 3rd world countries. I remember when i first started to tour abroad, in Spain before EU membership. If you cycled near small towns everywhere was a tip. Today Spain is spotless compared to the UK, they have coucil workers who clean the streets and they do the job properly.

 

[Sallar55]

This is for Cycleops.https://www.packaging-gateway.com/news/france-plastic-ban-restaurant/

 

[presta]

charging companies who make things hard to repair

There are three main factors that make things harder to repair, none of them really any fault of the manufacturer.

1. Economic Growth
The growth that makes everyone richer also makes labour more expensive, but the automation that generated the growth when applied to production can't be as readily applied to repair, because automation requires repeating the same task many times, and each repair is unique. That means that it gets cheaper and cheaper to buy new, but more and more expensive to repair, so the longer we keep chasing growth the more products will become uneconomical to repair.

2. Miniaturisation
Small products sell, but if you want repairable you need reversible manufacturing techniques, and they mitigate against minaturisation. Integrated circuits use less space than discrete circuits, glued is stronger and more compact than screwed, etc, etc. It irritates me intensely that I can't unplug the battery from my new laptop now it's knackered, but pluggable uses more space. You could unplug a valve from a telly, but you can't unsolder one of the billion transistors in a microprocessor. Microprocessors are also a lot cheaper than wiring up a billion valves.

3. Fashion
You could make products repairable, and spares available for 10 years, but manufacturers know their market, and if they spend money producing long lasting stuff for customers who throw it away when it's out of fashion they'll be cutting their own throats. The competition will clean up by selling cheaper products to the majority of the market that doesn't care if their phone lasts 10 years as long as it's better and newer than their peers' phones. I've been gluing my broken phone for years, but not many would want to be seen using a 12 year old broken dumb-phone like mine.

 

[tom73]

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ier-bags-charge-data-for-england-2021-to-2022

There were 496 million bags sold in 2021-22 as opposed to 2.12 billion in 2015-16, when the charge was introduced.

Looks like a success to me. I don't think I see as many carrier bags in my waste now, but of course your anecdotal evidence may be better than mine.


Well no, that would be silly. But if they never sold the packaging, there wouldn't be the waste, would there?



Ah, that old chestnut about recycling. I am wary about getting political when I really came here to read about bikes, but I can't help feeling that the producers of all this waste should take more responsibility for what happens to it beyond selling the products rather than blaming it all on individuals. You will always get irresponsible people who break the rules, but little nudges would really change matters.

Here's a thought. What about an extra 50p on the price of every item that was sold with throwaway packaging which you got back by returning it? I'd go around litter picking for that, I could probably make minimum wage. It might even incentivise producers to make things with less packaging because that's a big price difference.

Companies could do much more to fix things here, and we haven't made them. We are made to feel bad that our actions are ruining the planet but the fact is almost all pollution comes from a relatively small number of massive companies. They're the ones who need to step up here.

Another idea I once watched on a report the BBC did was a Town in Scandinavia. All household waste was put in given coloured bags they recycle most things a lot more than we do. Collected at road side it's sorted at one central location out of town by machines. People know it matters and understands to use the right bags and buy into it no complaining they know recycling benefits everyone.

The local tip is on same site and anything reparable, still usable is sorted and put into a warehouse the same stuff together. he rest is in turn recycled. The site also has a shopping centre full of independent 2rd and retro shops only. They get to take what ever they want from the warehouse to do up ect and sell in the shops.

Idea is people drive out to the tip anyway so they can go shopping for a replacement item at the same time. One site for both recycling and sustainable shopping with systems that are practical and joined up. Less waste , less environmental cost , employment for local people and more local money stays local.

 

[BoldonLad]

However it is true that, in general, the problems of rubbish at the roadside is worse in Britain than some other places (Disclaimer: it is also true that there are other places where it is as bad or worse than in Britian)

It's also true that a significant proportion of Brits are dirty scumbags (Disclaimer: this is not a trait unique to Brits, nor are all Brits dirty scumbags).

What we could do is try to learn from those places where it is less of a problem. What are they doing right? Why is it less of a problem in, say Denmark and Germany? Is it because they have a better approach to waste disposal that we could adopt? Is it simply to do with population density?

I doubt that population density is a primary cause?

 

[gbb]

Agree, we can procrastinate all day about reasons and who, but how on earth do you reverse this culture ?
Its a monumental problem, one that will need hard work from government and local councils. I shall'nt hold my breath sadly.

 

[BoldonLad]

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ier-bags-charge-data-for-england-2021-to-2022

There were 496 million bags sold in 2021-22 as opposed to 2.12 billion in 2015-16, when the charge was introduced.

Looks like a success to me. I don't think I see as many carrier bags in my waste now, but of course your anecdotal evidence may be better than mine.


Well no, that would be silly. But if they never sold the packaging, there wouldn't be the waste, would there?



Ah, that old chestnut about recycling. I am wary about getting political when I really came here to read about bikes, but I can't help feeling that the producers of all this waste should take more responsibility for what happens to it beyond selling the products rather than blaming it all on individuals. You will always get irresponsible people who break the rules, but little nudges would really change matters.

Here's a thought. What about an extra 50p on the price of every item that was sold with throwaway packaging which you got back by returning it? I'd go around litter picking for that, I could probably make minimum wage. It might even incentivise producers to make things with less packaging because that's a big price difference.

Companies could do much more to fix things here, and we haven't made them. We are made to feel bad that our actions are ruining the planet but the fact is almost all pollution comes from a relatively small number of massive companies. They're the ones who need to step up here.

I was speaking of litter, not waste. It is not the number of bags sold which is relevant, in this context, it is the number discarded in the environment. IMHO.

Again, in terms of litter, it is not the packaging which is the problem, but, how the consumer chooses to discard said packaging.

Most product comes from a small number of massive companies, naturally, that is why they are massive companies, or, alternatively, they are massive companies because they make most of the products. If McDonalds was split into (say) 10,000 small enterprises, and the meal containers from those 10,000 smaller enterprises discarded as those from McDonalds is now, would our hedgerows and roadsides be more litter free?

 

[Ming the Merciless]

Imagine a world in which you either ate your McDs on a tray there and then or you brought your own container with you. No packaging, no litter, no waste (other then food).

 

[BoldonLad]

Imagine a world in which you either ate your McDs on a tray there and then or you brought your own container with you. No packaging, no litter, no waste (other then food).

Yes, that would be fine, if that is what consumers wanted, but, given the success of McD in it's present format (there are alternatives, with conventional plates, knives, forks etc), it would appear that the McD model is what is wanted.

Personally, I don't use McD by the way, but, I do observe the queue of vehicles at the drive-thru. Not an issue, to me, if they (the punters) would just dispose of their litter responsibly.

 

[Ming the Merciless]

the McD model is what is wanted.

Is the one that works when they are allowed to produce the huge volumes of waste and littering without consequence to themselves.

 

[chris667]

I was speaking of litter, not waste. It is not the number of bags sold which is relevant, in this context, it is the number discarded in the environment. IMHO.

There were less than 1/4 of the bags sold in 2021-22 than there were in 2015-16. Neither of us have figures on the number that are discarded in the environment, but I suggest that there are fewer bags discarded because there are fewer sold.

Certainly my feeling is I see fewer plastic bags in roadsides now than I did in the past. Your feeling is it's the same. Neither of us knows for sure really, but what you're saying seems counterintuitive to the figure we do have.

Yes, that would be fine, if that is what consumers wanted, but, given the success of McD in it's present format (there are alternatives, with conventional plates, knives, forks etc), it would appear that the McD model is what is wanted.

The bitterest pill we will have to swallow this century (if our species makes it) is we can't have what we had over the last few decades. We tried to mass-produce items to restart the economy after world war two but something will have to give. Perpetual growth can't happen with finite resources and if McDonalds has to charge the true cost of the items it sells they won't sell as many awful burgers.

 

[Dogtrousers]

I doubt that population density is a primary cause?

Just a thought. I do a lot of cycling in (relatively) densely populated Kent / London outskirts and the roads can be badly rubbish strewn. But in much less densely populated Normandy over the channel I don't see the same problem.

 

[rualexander]

Root causes (Imho)
1970, population around 46 million. A much simpler time, less money, less waste.
2022, population around 67 million. A deeply rooted consumer society, infinitely more money available to us, overloaded with goods.
Far less community spirit. 30 years ago, we knew almost everyone up our street (yes I know, yawn, that old chestnut, but its true). Now, we're on nodding, occasional pleasantries with a handful.l of people, most we don't know, same with them and all their neighbours I assume. The turnaround of tenants up the street is huge.

20 million extra people, where do you think all the associated 'stuff and rubbish ' goes ?

And this morning, I walk out to the car to find an old mattress leant up against a fence.

UK population in 1970 was just under 56 million, so only a 10 million increase since then.
You'd need to go back to 1930 for a population of 46 million.

 

[Sallar55]

Imagine a world in which you either ate your McDs on a tray there and then or you brought your own container with you. No packaging, no litter, no waste (other then food).

That world will soon exit but its going to be called France.