Tubeless conversion

[Shadowfax]

ha ha pmsl he went across a cattle grid 2x 3punctures broken spokes dinged rim work that one out !!!!!

woz on the fixed mind.... am I making excuses ? nah !!!

 

[Crackle]

If I go for it, I'll probably go for the Stans kit, about 45 quid. This chap makes it all look remarkably easy but I suspect it's all in the rim shape and tyre fit as to how well it works. I'll have a look over the weekend when I fix the puncture and see how it looks as i think I now know what I'm looking for.

I don't have a compressor but this looks fun to make if I need one http://singletrackworld.com/forum/topic/ghetto-tubeless-inflator-total-cost-9p

 

[Pale Rider]

Converting a previously tubed tyre to tubeless will alter the tyre's handling.

You might like/not like/not notice the new characteristics, but it is something else to consider before going ahead.

 

[Crackle]

Converting a previously tubed tyre to tubeless will alter the tyre's handling.

You might like/not like/not notice the new characteristics, but it is something else to consider before going ahead.

Most people say positive things about it but yes, it may well change the characteristics a bit but I've not got many miles done on this bike yet, so I'll probably adapt.

Repaired the puncture today, another thorn and had a look at the rim which has a good lip on it. The tyre has a reasonable lip too but it's all quite loose and I can remove and put back without tyre levers, so I guess it'll be a case of building it up under the lip with the Stans tape and converter belt to make it a better fit.

I think I'll do it once I'm fit and riding regularly and as part of aiming for some mtn bike rides which I had to put off last year due to a knee injury. Struggling to get back right now, with a few bugs and still some knee niggles and not so motivated to ride on the road in winter.

 

[Panter]

Good luck, I'll be interested to hear how you got on once you're up and running. Much as I loved the ghetto system, I'm all for a life of minimum faff these days.
I do remember using foam tape to build up the profile of a rim to better suit a tyre with the ghetto syatem. Again, it worked well but was additional faff.

Re the handling characteristics, I didn't personally notice a huge change. Although, I still ran mine at relatively high pressure (for tubeless, anyway) so any effect was probably far less pronounced.
They did seem noticeably "grippier" on hard ground. I suspect that was due to the tyre being able to conform more easily to uneven shapes without the additional thickness of a tube being present, but that's all purely guesswork and may even have been purely psychological. Certainly didn't notice any negative changes, anyway.

 

[Pale Rider]

As @Yellow Saddle pointed out earlier, your tubeless conversion will have more chance of success if you have dedicated tyres for the job.

The sidewalls of some ordinary tyres are too thin, and all but porous before you start.

As you plan to wait a while and will get some wear from your existing tyres in the meantime, it would be well worth buying tubeless ready tyres for the conversion.

 

[Panter]

The Jones XR's that I did my first conversion on were unbelievably porus, the entire surface was fizzing with bubble when I first seated them with fairly liquid and the track pump.
Amazingly though, the Stans sealant did seal them completely and they were the best, and easiest, of all the tyres I did! Certainly far better than any of the Maxxis which seemed of a far heavier construction.
Only snag with UST tyres is that they are very heavy, and certainly rule out any weight saving from converting to tubeless. Saying that though, as per the above, I'd certainly go the UST rim & tyre route given chance. They just seem to work without any fuss which is more important to me than any weight saving.

 

[Pale Rider]

My mate Chris the mountain biking bike mechanic has tried tubeless and gone back to tubes.

He reckons the main benefit, rather than fewer punctures caused by sharp objects, is for those who like to run very low pressures because you cannot get a pinch flat in a tubeless tyre.

 

[Yellow Saddle]

Where I used to live, mountain biking reigned supreme and specifically the cross-country discipline. To give you an idea of its dominance, 9/10 of all bikes sold there were mountain bikes. The country hosts dozens of multi-day MTB stage races each year and there you would not find a single bike that's not running tubeless tyres. I feel pretty confident saying that the only tubes you'll find there were ones added on as en-route fixes. Our workshop also reflected the same statistic but get this. Because MTB was so dominant, people would install narrower road tyres for two very large road events each year. This had a huge impact on our workshop because during that particular week all the customers would come in, bring their road tyres from last year or purchase new tyres, and ask us to install narrow tyres for the one race. Come Monday, it is the reverse again, back to tubeless. There I learnt a lot about tubeless in a commercial environment. There you cannot afford to fool around with dodgy tyres that may or may not seal. More importantly, you can't afford the accusations after the race that the installation wasn't up to scratch because it failed. The rule was, if it doesn't say tubeless/tubeless-ready/UST, we wont touch it. Then, you had to pay for a complete installation, including new tape, valve the lot. Our experience was that just removing the tyre can move the tape (which is probably already compromised), and cause a leak. Once the sealant has leaked into the rim's cavity, you have problems. The workshop looked like war zone after those peak events.

I hate tubeless. But I won't go back to tubes myself.

 

[Cubist]

It's worth doing a bit of research around which rims will take a TLR tyre and valves. A surprising number of rims will convert readily without the need for rim strips. For example, my lad's DT EX 500 just needed Stans Yellow tape and valves to fit a TLR tyre. The yellow tape does nothing except create an airtight seal across the spoke holes. It is not designed to "build up" the well in the rim or create a tighter fit. If you need to do that you might as well use electrical tape once the spoke holes are sealed, it's much cheaper. .

The world has moved on from UST tyres a bit. Two factors being that they are unnecessarily heavy compared with Tubeless Ready, and secondly they are designed to fit rims without sealant, and that in itself defeats the puncture aspect.... they won't self-seal if breached by thorns or small splits.

So that brings us neatly back to using TLR tyres, tubeless valves and sealant. Tubeless ready tyres tend to be folding tyres with compliant beads, usually with kevlar reinforcing. Wired tyres are cheaper, but tend not to be as compliant and so take a lot more effort if they fit at all. I'd steer clear. TLR tyres can be porous, some more than others, but this is overcome by the sealant soon after fitting.

Tyres don't need to be a hugely tight fit. As long as you can get a lot of air into the tyre quickly, they will find their way onto the rim. If they are baggy or deformed around the bead though, you may well be wasting your time. A tyre that doesn't fit well enough will simply burp air on the first square edged hit, or enthusiastic landing. Similarly, paper-thin walled XC type tyres will be compromised in the wrong riding environment and tear on the first rock you find.

So that leads us to the ideal formula for tubeless tyres for XC and trail riding. A tubeless ready rim, ie one that will hold a TLR tyre in place without burping. Stans NoTube rims are the market leaders for a reason, but plenty of current Mavic, Superstar, Hope, DT Swiss etc will all work, you just need to do the research. @Crackle, just post a question onto Singletrackworld asking whether anyone is successfully using your particular rims with Stans Yellow tape, valves and sealant. You'll soon get your answers. Use the right terminology though, as Stans tape is not the same as a rimstrip. All you need then is yellow tape from Stans or Superstar Components to seal the spoke holes and joints, a pair of Stans or Superstar (half the price) tubeless valves and a bottle of Stans sealant. Tape the rims as per the Stans videos, and add the valves as per the instructions.

Treat yourself to a new pair of TLR tyres. I personally favour Schwalbe Snakeskins. They fit really well on my Stans rims, and have reinforced sidewalls. Fit the tyres onto the rims and use a compressor or CO2 cartridge to blast them into place using plenty of really soapy water on the tyres to lube them. Do this with the valve cores removed to increase the flow of air. If they are going to seal you'll hear them bang into place as the beads seal in the bead hook. Once you are satisfied they have sealed and hold most of the air, take off the inflator to deflate the tyres. Try not to disturb the beads, they should hold at this point. Now inject 60ml of sealant into each tyre through the valve, replace the valve core and reinflate to 40psi.

Now the fun starts. You'll see bubbles of soapy water forming where the bead seats, so you need to hold the wheel horizontally in front of you and swirl it to make the fluid contact every part of the bead, flip it over and repeat. Eventually the bubbling will stop, and you can leave the wheel horizontal for a few hours. During this stage the beads will seal by the action of the fluid. The tyre may lose pressure while you're waiting, but his isn't a problem, it's just air escaping through any porous parts of the sidewall etc. This will stop as soon as you start riding, as the fluid is distributed over every surface inside by the wheel's rotation.

 

[GrumpyGregry]

It's worth doing a bit of research around which rims will take a TLR tyre and valves. A surprising number of rims will convert readily without the need for rim strips. For example, my lad's DT EX 500 just needed Stans Yellow tape and valves to fit a TLR tyre. The yellow tape does nothing except create an airtight seal across the spoke holes. It is not designed to "build up" the well in the rim or create a tighter fit. If you need to do that you might as well use electrical tape once the spoke holes are sealed, it's much cheaper. .

The world has moved on from UST tyres a bit. Two factors being that they are unnecessarily heavy compared with Tubeless Ready, and secondly they are designed to fit rims without sealant, and that in itself defeats the puncture aspect.... they won't self-seal if breached by thorns or small splits.

So that brings us neatly back to using TLR tyres, tubeless valves and sealant. Tubeless ready tyres tend to be folding tyres with compliant beads, usually with kevlar reinforcing. Wired tyres are cheaper, but tend not to be as compliant and so take a lot more effort if they fit at all. I'd steer clear. TLR tyres can be porous, some more than others, but this is overcome by the sealant soon after fitting.

Tyres don't need to be a hugely tight fit. As long as you can get a lot of air into the tyre quickly, they will find their way onto the rim. If they are baggy or deformed around the bead though, you may well be wasting your time. A tyre that doesn't fit well enough will simply burp air on the first square edged hit, or enthusiastic landing. Similarly, paper-thin walled XC type tyres will be compromised in the wrong riding environment and tear on the first rock you find.

So that leads us to the ideal formula for tubeless tyres for XC and trail riding. A tubeless ready rim, ie one that will hold a TLR tyre in place without burping. Stans NoTube rims are the market leaders for a reason, but plenty of current Mavic, Superstar, Hope, DT Swiss etc will all work, you just need to do the research. @Crackle, just post a question onto Singletrackworld asking whether anyone is successfully using your particular rims with Stans Yellow tape, valves and sealant. You'll soon get your answers. Use the right terminology though, as Stans tape is not the same as a rimstrip. All you need then is yellow tape from Stans or Superstar Components to seal the spoke holes and joints, a pair of Stans or Superstar (half the price) tubeless valves and a bottle of Stans sealant. Tape the rims as per the Stans videos, and add the valves as per the instructions.

Treat yourself to a new pair of TLR tyres. I personally favour Schwalbe Snakeskins. They fit really well on my Stans rims, and have reinforced sidewalls. Fit the tyres onto the rims and use a compressor or CO2 cartridge to blast them into place using plenty of really soapy water on the tyres to lube them. Do this with the valve cores removed to increase the flow of air. If they are going to seal you'll hear them bang into place as the beads seal in the bead hook. Once you are satisfied they have sealed and hold most of the air, take off the inflator to deflate the tyres. Try not to disturb the beads, they should hold at this point. Now inject 60ml of sealant into each tyre through the valve, replace the valve core and reinflate to 40psi.

Now the fun starts. You'll see bubbles of soapy water forming where the bead seats, so you need to hold the wheel horizontally in front of you and swirl it to make the fluid contact every part of the bead, flip it over and repeat. Eventually the bubbling will stop, and you can leave the wheel horizontal for a few hours. During this stage the beads will seal by the action of the fluid. The tyre may lose pressure while you're waiting, but his isn't a problem, it's just air escaping through any porous parts of the sidewall etc. This will stop as soon as you start riding, as the fluid is distributed over every surface inside by the wheel's rotation.

^This.

As ever @Cubist knows of what he speaks

 

[GrumpyGregry]

My mate Chris the mountain biking bike mechanic has tried tubeless and gone back to tubes.

He reckons the main benefit, rather than fewer punctures caused by sharp objects, is for those who like to run very low pressures because you cannot get a pinch flat in a tubeless tyre.

Spot on. Looking through the other end of the telescope tubeless is an enabler

The main benefit, rather than fewer punctures, etc., is for those big units like me who want to run very low pressures on certain terrain for the improvement in tyre conformity and, thusly, the improved grip this gives, because you cannot get a pinch flat in a tubeless set up (well you can if you try hard enough, and you'll probably wreck the rim in the process. Do not ask me how I know this)

 

[Cubist]

@Crackle Are your wheels 29ers?

I've asked the oracle:
http://singletrackworld.com/forum/t...ne-using-them-tubeless?replies=1#post-6736792

 

[Pale Rider]

Given how tubeless tyres work on cars, tubeless on bikes - however it's done - appears to be a mega bodge and faff.

One piece wheels - moulded or cast - is the obvious answer.

I've seen them on some bikes, but I'm guessing most are horrid to ride.

Does anyone know if any progress is being made in that direction?

 

[GrumpyGregry]

small wide and fat vs tall thin and narrow innit?