Unfair costs in car repairs

[Rezillo]

I used to own a Honda CRV. Before buying it, I had found an owners' forum and noted the common problems to keep an eye out for. One was failure of the air conditioning control unit, which had a firmware bug that after around three years use resulted in the air conditioning failing - the On button would just flash green doing nothing.

Several owners had been charged £500 for a new unit, plus labour, until someone posted the reset sequence for the air conditioning. This involved turning the heating dials to set positions while holding down a button and turning on the ignition. The system would then run through a self-diagnostic lasting less than a minute, after which a 'failed' unit would start working again or stay failed (but usually working). This resulted in many supportive posts from owners who hadn't bothered to stomp up the best part of £700 to fix their aircon but found that this fix worked.

Three years in, my aircon failed and the fix worked for me (the aircon was still working two years later when I sold it). When I took the CRV in for a service a few months later, I overheard the service manager talking to another CRV owner on the phone about investigating failed aircon. Off the phone, I chattily explained the fix I had found online and how easy it was to do only to find the service manager was looky distinctly uncomfortable and unwilling to discuss it. At this point I realised that I should really change to another dealer!

[edit] In case someone googles and gets this post, the instructions are (for a pre 2006 model CRV):

How to Retrieve a DTC. The Heater Control Panel has a self-diagnosis function.

Running the Self-diagnosis Function

Turn the ignition switch OFF.

Turn the fan switch OFF, the temperature control dial on Max Cool and the mode control dial on Vent.

Turn the ignition switch ON (II), then press and hold the recirculation control switch. Within 10 seconds while holding the switch down, press the rear window defogger switch five times. The recirculation indicator blinks two times, then the self-diagnosis will begin. If there is any problem in the system after self-diagnosis is finished, the recirculation indicator will blink the Diagnostic Trouble Code (DTC) 7 through 13 when problems in the evaporator temperature sensor circuit are detected (codes 14 and 15), the A/C indicator will blink the DTC. If no DTC's are found, the indicator will not blink.

 

[screenman]

I once had a car that would give me a problems, i took it back to the garage and they gave me my money back and another car free of charge, they also sent us on an all expenses paid hoilday for our troubles.


I am of course making this up, the point being, do not believe all you read on the internet, after all "pop corn dent removal" does not really work.

 

[mjr]

The for all these saying it's a rip off.

I'm assuming when you fix stuff yourself. You factor in rent on a unit, business council rates, paying staff a decent wage, holiday pay, pension and NI contributions, thousands of pounds of equipment, etc.

Yes it may be more expensive, but a rip off. I don't think so.

The basic idea of paying someone to repair a car is not a rip-off, but certain business practices are rip-offs, such as refusing to sell a spring or disclose its spec in order to sell more complete units. Surely you don't defend that?

And I'm effectively self-employed (working for a small co-op, paid on divi), so yes, I do more-or-less know my overheads and factor that in sometimes when deciding whether to do a task myself or get someone else to do it. I still think that some motoring practices are rip-offs. I know my own field (software producers) are guilty of some pretty shameful stuff too, but it seems like ethical standards are even lower in modern motoring.

Mechanics don't make a lot of money, and garages aren't rolling around with their pots of gold.

Well of course not. Most mechanics are also being exploited by the dealerships in various ways in order to keep exporting the profits... How many billions did Peugeot make in 2016?

You're personally liable - not the business - if you tell someone how to do something and it goes wrong,

It depends and good businesses insure their workers for reasonable tasks at work.

They're businesses, not charities.

Exactly! So why should we keep donating money to them if they price themselves too high?

 

[PhilDawson8270]

The basic idea of paying someone to repair a car is not a rip-off, but certain business practices are rip-offs, such as refusing to sell a spring or disclose its spec in order to sell more complete units. Surely you don't defend that?

A company that spends millions in research and development, and hires the engineers that design this stuff. Why would they disclose it's specification so people can go and make their own copies?

And I'm effectively self-employed (working for a small co-op, paid on divi), so yes, I do more-or-less know my overheads and factor that in sometimes when deciding whether to do a task myself or get someone else to do it. I still think that some motoring practices are rip-offs. I know my own field (software producers) are guilty of some pretty shameful stuff too, but it seems like ethical standards are even lower in modern motoring.

How much time would you have to sacrifice to gain the skills you are paying for? Are you willing to do so in return for not having to pay the quoted prices?

Well of course not. Most mechanics are also being exploited by the dealerships in various ways in order to keep exporting the profits... How many billions did Peugeot make in 2016?

Can't argue with this

It depends and good businesses insure their workers for reasonable tasks at work.

Is acting like a consulting, advising a member of the public to do their own work, a reasonable task at work?

Exactly! So why should we keep donating money to them if they price themselves too high?

You shouldn't, the awesome thing about a free market is you can find an alternative if you wish to. Or you can learn the skills yourself.

 

[Nigel-YZ1]

I had the fun of owning an 'approved used' BMW.
Rear differential input bearing, probably worth £10 failed. Yes sir, that'll be £1500 for a new differential + fitting.
Complaining sir? Very well BMW have allowed us to use their reconditioned unit, that's £850.

That was the last straw after the £350 traction control valve, the head gasket £500, washer bottle filter £250 etc...
£3500 in 18 months. The manual says they use a 'modular' approach for easy maintenance and repair. That explains it.

Then the sump gasket started leaking, which requires removing the steering and half the front suspension... I thought sod it and traded it in for a Suzuki Swift.

 

[screenman]

Is Peugeot a dealer, I think not.

 

[mjr]

A company that spends millions in research and development, and hires the engineers that design this stuff. Why would they disclose it's specification so people can go and make their own copies?

If the spec of a damageable spring is the only thing protecting their design, then they're in big trouble anyway. Personally, I feel that if artificial protection of any design element is the only thing keeping someone in business, then they've an unsustainable business model - and if they make their trapped victims, sorry I mean customers hate them with high prices, then they're in bigger trouble because they're going to lose a lot of repair work to independents and people will be keener to sell the vehicles and buy something where they don't have to deal with daffodils so much, so the second-hand market price will fall.

How much time would you have to sacrifice to gain the skills you are paying for? Are you willing to do so in return for not having to pay the quoted prices?

In general, I do factor in that I'm much slower than a specialist and sometimes need to obtain tools or equipment as part of the decision-making, but how much time and skill are you thinking it takes to remove a broken spring and fit a new one? Even if it requires a specialist tool, that's often going to work out less than £350 all-told, often especially once the owner adds on the cost of getting the car to/from the mechanic.

 

[PhilDawson8270]

If the spec of a damageable spring is the only thing protecting their design, then they're in big trouble anyway. Personally, I feel that if artificial protection of any design element is the only thing keeping you in business, then you've an unsustainable business model - and if you make your trapped victims, sorry I mean customers hate you with high prices, then you're in bigger trouble.

So engineering companies should release all their blueprints, drawings, and design work free of charge to whoever wants them?

In general, I do factor in that I'm much slower than a specialist and sometimes need to obtain tools or equipment as part of the decision-making, but how much time and skill are you thinking it takes to remove a broken spring and fit a new one? Even if it requires a specialist tool, that's often going to work out less than £350 all-told, often especially once the owner adds on the cost of getting the car to/from the mechanic.

£350 minus the VAT

You can get a set of spring compressors for £50 or so. Pair of pattern springs for £60. So if you didn't have the tools you can do it for £110. But that then leaves £240 to pay the mechanic, employee NI for the mechanic, cover any sick pay and holiday pay, pay the bills on the garage. From what little is left, you still end up paying tax on that too before there's any profit left to pay the people with the real financial risk involved in the business.

Comparing costs on your drive way at home cannot be fairly compared to having it done at a garage.

 

[marinyork]

The for all these saying it's a rip off.

I'm assuming when you fix stuff yourself. You factor in rent on a unit, business council rates, paying staff a decent wage, holiday pay, pension and NI contributions, thousands of pounds of equipment, etc.

Yes it may be more expensive, but a rip off. I don't think so.

I agree, but how many employers actually do that any more, especially the emboldened terms?

Not saying specialist garages are using people on zero hour contracts, but I've heard of other garages paying minimum wage, having apprenticeships and the usual wheezes. Many employers in the service sector pay no or little pensions to workers and pay no or very little employers national insurance contributions even though they don't use zero hour contracts? Does the typical garage worker work full time or a very good fraction of full time?

 

[PhilDawson8270]

I agree, but how many employers actually do that any more, especially the emboldened terms?

By next year all companies have to auto-enroll staff into a workplace pension scheme that earn more than £10k pa. Employers pay employer NI contributions for each staff member that is on PAYE too. Of the emboldened ones, the decent wage is often the bit that's missing

Not saying specialist garages are using people on zero hour contracts, but I've heard of other garages paying minimum wage, having apprenticeships and the usual wheezes. Many employers in the service sector pay no or little pensions to workers and pay no or very little employers national insurance contributions even though they don't use zero hour contracts? Does the typical garage worker work full time or a very good fraction of full time?

Typical garage workers are expected to complete a certain amount of booked time per week, and I believe is paid as so. It was at least the case when my dad was in the industry. The issue is this "booked time" is often unrealistic, and not achievable in the normal working week. They're underpaid, and overworked, they don't want to be wasting time fault finding, as the mechanic is often missing out on bonus payments for spending too long on jobs. Which is why it's in, see what the computer says, and out again.

 

[marinyork]

By next year all companies have to auto-enroll staff into a workplace pension scheme that earn more than £10k pa. Employers pay employer NI contributions for each staff member that is on PAYE too. Of the emboldened ones, the decent wage is often the bit that's missing

Entirely missing the point. The best known of those is the secondary threshold for employers national insurance contributions. Below £157 a week employers pay zilch national insurance contributions as although they pay its at a rate of 0%. A lot of employers deliberately hire out short hour staff to not only spread the risk load for sickness and to not pay breaks, but to weasle out of paying those pension contributions and national insurance I was talking about. It's very common. How common in the garage industry I don't know.

 

[PhilDawson8270]

Entirely missing the point. The best known of those is the secondary threshold for employers national insurance contributions. Below £157 a week employers pay zilch national insurance contributions as although they pay its at a rate of 0%. A lot of employers deliberately hire out short hour staff to not only spread the risk load for sickness and to not pay breaks, but to weasle out of paying those pension contributions and national insurance I was talking about. It's very common. How common in the garage industry I don't know.

Thanks, I wasn't aware the cut off was that high. I don't think there are that many short hour workers in garages though.

 

[Electric_Andy]

I think this sort of thing (over-charging) is one of the reasons why new cars/PCP deals are at a record high.

 

[mjr]

So engineering companies should release all their blueprints, drawings, and design work free of charge to whoever wants them?

At reasonable cost, but basically, yes, if you want a sustainable ethical business and that's what movements like Open Hardware, Free Software and Creative Commons are mostly doing. I'll stop there before we go too far off-topic and note that motor manufacturers seem to be hurtling in the other direction so fast they're likely to hurt themselves - I suspect a few would weld bonnets shut if the market would let them!

£350 minus the VAT

You can get a set of spring compressors for £50 or so. Pair of pattern springs for £60. So if you didn't have the tools you can do it for £110. But that then leaves £240 to pay the mechanic, employee NI for the mechanic, cover any sick pay and holiday pay, pay the bills on the garage.

And all the other overheads, but the garage isn't going to buy new tools every time they replace a spring and pays trade rates rather than retail, so there's a bit more money to pay for things there... but when you do the work yourself, you've still got your own bills and expenses to cover too. Few people get rich from DIY, you know?

Also, remember, the garage quoted @User9609 £90 labour and that was to replace the whole unit and not only the spring!

From what little is left, you still end up paying tax on that too before there's any profit left to pay the people with the real financial risk involved in the business.

Ahhh, now it becomes clear! We should all give generously to garages to keep their poor hard-done-by shareholders in profit!

Comparing costs on your drive way at home cannot be fairly compared to having it done at a garage.

Yes, as some of the amazing claims made in this discussion show... but the bottom line is that the spring probably doesn't work any differently if you can fit it on your driveway and trying to prevent that act by refusing to sell springs is a pretty spiteful way to get business.

Is Peugeot a dealer, I think not.

Robins & Day is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Peugeot. I think you've been working long enough that you must know that, so stop splitting springs.

 

[nickyboy]

It's not only cars. One of the reasons I'm changing my main bike from a Shimano Nexus hub gear to a Sturmey Archer is that Shimano will only sell complete new internals while SA still sell all the bits if you want them. That and parts availability for the Nexus consumables (bearings and so on) seems relatively slow, with little stock held by anyone in the UK so it's often a wait for things to come from Germany or Singapore (so far).

Similarly, if you damage the plastic housing of a Campagnolo Brake/Shifter you have to buy a complete mechanism. £100 for one. And the plastic surround is brittle and prone to damage. Plastic bit is probably 5% of total assembly cost