OP
OP
biggs682
Itching to get back on my bike's
- Location
- Northamptonshire
could anybody stand or do you need to be ??????
vote for election of the police and crime commissioner
- Thread starter biggs682
- Start date
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Drago
Legendary Member
- Location
- Suburban Poshshire
Pending not having a criminal record and being a British Citizen pretty much anyone can. Genuine business skills will be far more valuable than policing knowledge as you don't need to know how to apply handcuffs, but you do need to know how to set, apply and manage a budget, and how to liaise/negotiate with others to get that budget in the first place, and how to set strategic objectives as a result of those consultations.
They would, for example, have zero power or authority over me a a police officer.
Like the current police authorities they could dismiss a chief constable if the consistently under perform or commit sone kind of serious disciplinary offence. And that's it.
They have zero powers to get officers out of cars and on the beat, put from behind desks, and all the other poo the candidates are trotting out. These people are either in some kind of power trip, or else extremely ignorant to think they will have any type of say in day to day policing activity, and I don't intend to vote for megalomaniacs or the deluded, which unfortunately encompasses all my local candidates.
Unfortunately the public at large are starting to think the same way and the Government are doing nothing to set the record straight.
They would, for example, have zero power or authority over me a a police officer.
Like the current police authorities they could dismiss a chief constable if the consistently under perform or commit sone kind of serious disciplinary offence. And that's it.
They have zero powers to get officers out of cars and on the beat, put from behind desks, and all the other poo the candidates are trotting out. These people are either in some kind of power trip, or else extremely ignorant to think they will have any type of say in day to day policing activity, and I don't intend to vote for megalomaniacs or the deluded, which unfortunately encompasses all my local candidates.
Unfortunately the public at large are starting to think the same way and the Government are doing nothing to set the record straight.
Drago
Legendary Member
- Location
- Suburban Poshshire
I'm not saying it is any more or less political, the only difference is we can vote directly for the new chap if we wish. As you say, we couldn't directly influence police authority members so it was a moot point.
It will add an element of democracy, but at the expense of directly, in the clear majority of cases, having a single person answerable between elections only to themselves, with a clear, identifiable political affiliation.
The only difference is we can now vote for them.
What politics has to do with setting a budget and meeting a fiscal target is anyone's guess. It's just another consideration, another distraction, a further imiedinent to doing a slick, efficient job.
I can't see an issue with democracy here. Why not the NHS? Fire and Rescue? Why did it start here? Where does it stop? And apart from some notional idea of democracy, what does it bring? These guys and gals will be managing a budget, setting strategic targets identified by the community - why do they need to be 'elected' to be able to do that? How can they discharge these tasks without favour or bias while also dancing to a political tune?
There's no democracy here. The public will not be electing soneone to run their local police. They'll be electing someone to hold the purse strings and to then further listen to what the electorate see as broad priorities. In day to day policing terms it makes about as much difference as me having toast for breakfast instead of cereal - where's the democracy in voting for an administrator with zero operational power or authority? Unfortunately, most candidates think they will be running the place and thus have been making manifesto promises they have no means whatsoever of implementing - where's the democracy in being misled? Apart from which it shows the woeful calibre of the candidates if they really think that's what they'll be doing.
It will add an element of democracy, but at the expense of directly, in the clear majority of cases, having a single person answerable between elections only to themselves, with a clear, identifiable political affiliation.
The only difference is we can now vote for them.
What politics has to do with setting a budget and meeting a fiscal target is anyone's guess. It's just another consideration, another distraction, a further imiedinent to doing a slick, efficient job.
I can't see an issue with democracy here. Why not the NHS? Fire and Rescue? Why did it start here? Where does it stop? And apart from some notional idea of democracy, what does it bring? These guys and gals will be managing a budget, setting strategic targets identified by the community - why do they need to be 'elected' to be able to do that? How can they discharge these tasks without favour or bias while also dancing to a political tune?
There's no democracy here. The public will not be electing soneone to run their local police. They'll be electing someone to hold the purse strings and to then further listen to what the electorate see as broad priorities. In day to day policing terms it makes about as much difference as me having toast for breakfast instead of cereal - where's the democracy in voting for an administrator with zero operational power or authority? Unfortunately, most candidates think they will be running the place and thus have been making manifesto promises they have no means whatsoever of implementing - where's the democracy in being misled? Apart from which it shows the woeful calibre of the candidates if they really think that's what they'll be doing.
twentysix by twentyfive
Clinging on tightly
- Location
- Over the Hill
Setting budgets against strategic targets is power (and hence political). Such things constrain the organisation to act in certain ways. If the Chief Constable doesn't "obey" then he'll be out of a job.
Drago
Legendary Member
- Location
- Suburban Poshshire
No he won't! Poor performance or serious disciplinary issues are the only reasons they can be dismissed, like me, doubtless like you in your own job. Don't be believing the guff these candidates are coming out with.
Remember, they're police AND crime commissioners and the other main party at the table won't be the Chief Constable as a single person, but mainly the local Crine and Antisocial Behaviour Partnerships (or whatever they're called up your way) and consist of police AND local authority figures who also have a lawful duty under the crime and disorder act to take steps to tackle crine and ASB in their area. The Chief Cobstable had no powers to switch street lighting back on. The a chief Constable had no powers to insist architects take measures to design out crime opportunities on new developments. The councils do. This is why the various partnership panels exist and no single person or figure can be held respobsible for things outside of their individual sphere of influence - a panel of interested and empowered parties can.
I know how but works, I've spent 3 years seconded to an Anti Social Behaviour Unit at the council ( and still upset many by insisting on wearing my uniform instead of a suit). I've been to the monthly meetings of the real power brokers, the CC, the borough council, the county council, one local Crine project with significant independent funding. If you think the new Police and Crime Commissioners can dismiss the CC because of a failure of an entire Partnership then you're as mad as most of the candidates.
Remember, they're police AND crime commissioners and the other main party at the table won't be the Chief Constable as a single person, but mainly the local Crine and Antisocial Behaviour Partnerships (or whatever they're called up your way) and consist of police AND local authority figures who also have a lawful duty under the crime and disorder act to take steps to tackle crine and ASB in their area. The Chief Cobstable had no powers to switch street lighting back on. The a chief Constable had no powers to insist architects take measures to design out crime opportunities on new developments. The councils do. This is why the various partnership panels exist and no single person or figure can be held respobsible for things outside of their individual sphere of influence - a panel of interested and empowered parties can.
I know how but works, I've spent 3 years seconded to an Anti Social Behaviour Unit at the council ( and still upset many by insisting on wearing my uniform instead of a suit). I've been to the monthly meetings of the real power brokers, the CC, the borough council, the county council, one local Crine project with significant independent funding. If you think the new Police and Crime Commissioners can dismiss the CC because of a failure of an entire Partnership then you're as mad as most of the candidates.
twentysix by twentyfive
Clinging on tightly
- Location
- Over the Hill
I bow to your superior knowledge and experience but Poor Performance can be defined to be - he didn't deliver on the budget or the strategic priorities can't it? I'm very unknowledgeable about how the Police are run at present but I'm cynical enough to spot thin end of wedges. Elected official vs appointed functionary/expert is a no contest. Boris got his man out of the Met and there was no politicisation then.
I'm yet to read any guff on this from candidates - I've just got the Electoral Commission Leaflet through. I'm planning to have a read.
Richard A Thackeray
Legendary Member
I always want to vote, but it's hard when you don't have a candidate you want to vote for!
In the case of this vote for police and crime commissioner, I don't even know who I can vote for.
In terms of the next main election, I don't want any of them in charge.
mrandmrspoves
Middle aged bald git.
- Location
- Narfuk
.....so you vote for who you would least not like to be elected!
Re PCSOs
I have worked in two different forces, West Midlands and now Surrey.
Surrey Police use PCSOs and something I didn't even knew existed, PSOs.
PSOs can work after midnight unlike the Cinderella-esque PCSOs and they have I think more powers than PCSOS and are of much more use to officers. They are used primarily on response strands to help transport prisoners, seize CCTV, take statements, guard scenes, and other things I haven't even had to do yet.
West Mids only used PCSOs and only as part of the Neighbourhood strand. They have very few powers of any use to officers which is why they are somewhat derided and are only useful for increasing the 'police presence' which really means We Want Flori Jackets On Every Street Corner. Don't They Look Pretty! Don't We Look Like We Are On Top Of Crime In This Area?!
I don't know what PCCs will be able to change about this, apart from if they got rid of all PCSOs and only had PSOs. I think this would be fantastic.
Re PCCs
Sorry I can't help much as we know nothing more than Joe Public and we care even less.
I don't think this is going to affect us Plebs on the street one iota, we are only bothered by what our sergeants and sometimes inspectors tell us to do, and whether it is (most importantly) the right/simplest/easiest thing to do.
If some self-inflated PCC comes in and decides that we'll be filling in less paperwork, or completing more search forms, or arresting fewer people, what will we do? Just moan in the office for a bit and then go out onto the streets and do what our sergeants tell us to do while trying to stop criminals hurting us or hurting other people, and trying to help everyone else.
Politically led policing agendas are nothing new, and most are short lived fads which are quickly replaced by the new 'in' thing which, unsurprisingly, are normally something that was already successfully used some time before.
If PCCs have the power to affect our wages or our pensions (which we are grateful are the best in public service, but aware we pay the highest contributions for) officers would be much more interested.
As it is I am under the impression they will mainly be business heads to guide the organisations and save money, which is exactly NOT what any police officer is interested in, otherwise we'd be in business, not standing on a rainy scene in winter for 10 hours. For the love of the job.
( Sorry have I become a bit ranty? At least my diatribe wasn't in seven different colours and four different fonts...)
Night Train
Maker of Things
- Location
- Greater Manchester
I can appreciate that situation and often I find that to be the case too. But I would rather vote for the 'least bad' candidate and work with it then not vote at all. Hopefully one day there will be other voting options but I guess candidates are too afraid of 'none of the above' votes or 'Don't change anything as I am happier with the existing arrangement'.
My gripe was more to do with people who whinge about not having a say, spout their opinions to any one who will listen and then not vote or stand for election themselves.
Anyway, my local candidates have started publicising their positions in the local paper. Four are from political parties with lots to say about politics and one is independent who seems to have nothing to say at all, about anything.
Archie_tect
De Skieven Architek... aka Penfold + Horace
- Location
- Northumberland
We've all got polling cards... if I can make the effort I'll have a look but it's not that exciting...
classic33
Leg End Member
Which side of the Pennines, East or West. Sounds familiar, that last bit.I can appreciate that situation and often I find that to be the case too. But I would rather vote for the 'least bad' candidate and work with it then not vote at all. Hopefully one day there will be other voting options but I guess candidates are too afraid of 'none of the above' votes or 'Don't change anything as I am happier with the existing arrangement'.
My gripe was more to do with people who whinge about not having a say, spout their opinions to any one who will listen and then not vote or stand for election themselves.
Anyway, my local candidates have started publicising their positions in the local paper. Four are from political parties with lots to say about politics and one is independent who seems to have nothing to say at all, about anything.
